Hey guys! New to the forum and looking to get into road racing and track events. I currently own a 991 911 Turbo S, '19 GT350 Mustang, C8 Corvette and some other cars, but don't want to take something too nice to the track since I'm a "newbie." I favor Ford and Porsche, so was thinking of maybe a Focus RS or a used Porsche Cayman? But I was also thinking of maybe an S550 5.0L Mustang or a C5/C6/C7 Corvette, I don't know. I would prefer start off with something with lower HP and then work my way up. Also don't know if I should go manual or automatic, but it would seem going automatic would let me focus on driving lines more vs having to shift (at least to start). Thanks in advance for the suggestions!
If only there was single answer to this question...
Is it true that Miata is always the answer?
wspohn
SuperDork
11/13/22 11:00 a.m.
John Welsh said:
If only there was single answer to this question...
Is it true that Miata is always the answer?
Today, yes, I think so.
Back in the day I'd have been championing something like a Sprite or Spitfire, or maybe a Mini.
In reply to John Welsh :
I have heard the Miata is a great car to start with and I'd be game for one. Any tips for which models or generations are good to start with? Manual or auto?
In reply to StreetsideClassics :
The first gen NAs are out because any non-clapped-out examples command too much of a premium. If you like the looks you can still find NBs (1999-2005) at decent prices. NCs will be faster stock for stock. The aftermarket isn't quite as good yet, but is catching up (in regards to pure "track focused" parts). Sounds like it might not be a long term keeper for you, so that likely doesn't matter.
Were I you, I'd be looking at a cheap NC manual. Drive it basically stock, don't worry too much if something bad happens, and learn. You can upgrade suspension later, or maybe you'll move to a different car by then. Guarantee you'll end up a better driver than someone starting in a Porsche or Corvette...
I wouldn't consider an auto for a track car unless you have no manual experience and/or you think your next track car might be an EV. As long as you're on track with an ICE, shifting and managing engine braking will be an important part of car control and driving an auto on track would be a major compromise to the experience and your learning.
If you have no manual experience, one good option could be to go with some kind of robotized manual or manually shiftable automatic ("flappy paddle gearbox") so that you have control over the gears without having to learn an H-pattern and track driving at the same time.
If you do have manual experience...manual it is.
Find a mercury marauder, manual swap it. Have a great track toy that will be reliable, have parts support and be cheap with regards to consumables.
Or a 6.0L Chevy police sedan from an auction and manual swap that.
I'd suggest an FRS BRZ. Roomy and modern with a decent power to weight ratio that will make learning the car on track less stressful than a high powered car. And definitely manual.
although, if you're the kinda guy that isn't into manuals, then look for an inexpensive Porsche with the PDK.
In reply to StreetsideClassics :
There is really no bad year Miatas, just bad condition Miatas. Buy the best condition you can afford.
Do not get an automatic Miata. An automatic can be acceptable in a high hp/tq vehicle but a Miata is neither so you'll need to be able to shift yourself to find that hp/tq.
In reply to StreetsideClassics :
Without manual transmission experience ( very important for racing purposes) learn on anything you can to just shift and drive. Once you can drive a manual go to an event and ask a instructor to drive your car while you ride along with. Then switch seats and focus on shifting under his tutelage.
Now you are ready to worry about lines and braking points. Not before.
There is a very solid reason for leaning it that way. It's like learning to walk before racing, er running.
If you really want a legitimate reason to lean to drive a manual transmission, it's because automatics cannot yet read your mind and delay a shift or shift early based on opportunity.
In reply to spedracer :
Thanks for that! This is exactly why I don't want to be "that guy" and start off taking my Turbo S or C8 to the track---they are too much car for me to begin on, especially on smaller tracks. I'd rather "grow with the cars" as my skill level increases.
Tom1200
UberDork
11/13/22 3:47 p.m.
In reply to StreetsideClassics :
So as someone instructing at PCA track days I'll say you are on the right track.
You'll learn a ton in a bone stock NC Miata. Add a roll bar, if need be, go have fun and learn.
If you absolutely must have a Porsche, a regular Cayman or Boxster will work pretty well.
I'd still recommend a Miata as you will be less likely to worry about it being nicked or scratched. Also it will be cheaper to run.
One final word; don't fall into the trap of modifying the car right away. You want a car with a lower limit intially.
Hi! Welcome to the madness.
What tracks are you wanting to start driving at?
Anything can be a good time! The last lemons race I was at, the guys with a bone stock Toyota Avalon were possibly having the most fun out of anyone, and that thing took all the abuse they could throw at it... until the all season tires they were running on shredded themselves toward the end of the second day.
If you don't want a project, find something new enough that you don't have to do a bunch of maintenance to make it track-worthy.
Miata is a great answer but - and this goes for any car - make sure you fit in comfortably with a helmet. If it's a manual are the pedals comfortable? If you're tall like me, some cars have better sight lines than others, even if you do "fit" If you want something with a bit more space, something like a Focus, Mazda 3 or Civic Si would be great too.
First couple times on a track I was mostly focused on finding flag stations and getting used to being around other cars on a track. Honestly, what I was driving probably didn't really matter at that point.
A lot of the modern automatic transmissions would be fine for a track day. Heck, the manual shift mode in my 2010 Mazda 5 is snappy enough that it would do the job. I do think a manual is more fun.
Hmmm since you own a Porsche. And I'm sure your a member of the Porsche Club. Do they have autocross events in the summer? That is where I would start off first. See if you like zipping around cones and improving your time. There is no crashing into another car that I know of at a coned event. Then you do not have to purchase a different car and find out you do not enjoy racing. But then if you do find it is a blast then find a car that you fit into (Miata) and have at it!
Welcome to GRM!! By your username, I'm guessing you work for Streetside Classics? If so, that's awesome!! There are a lot of us road racers here. I'm a long time Lemons and HPDE guy, have also started dipping my toes into instructing.
Manual or auto - GameboyRMH hit the nail on the head, IMO. In addition to what he said, depending on the track you may not do as much shifting as you think. A lot of tracks only require a few shifts per lap, so it's not as big a part of things as you may think. If you have zero manual experience on the street, then you can start with an auto. Otherwise, I think a manual is pretty much a must if that is your long term goal.
As to what car, there have been plenty of good suggestions here. At the same time, I don't think you "need" to get a low power, low cost car (assuming you're OK with putting it on the track). Using your C8 as an example - the car is more capable than you are right now anyway, so unless you do something really dumb you won't be exploring it's upper limits. Also, if you have an instructor with your....or at a minimum do a lead/follow with an experienced driver...you will still learn proper habits. No matter what car you have, you should not be driving it 10/10ths in your first track days. Yes, I agree that you'll reach the limits much quicker in an NC Miata than a C8, and thus learn to handle a car at it's limit. However, you can still learn properly using an existing car you have. If you really want a starter car, nothing wrong with that. Miata is never a bad option. If you want to put your Mustang on the track, go buy a V6 Mustang and learn with that. If you want a Porsche, I would say Boxster would be a great start. I've got an '03 Boxster that has a rebuilt title (had no structural damage or airbag deploy), 5spd manual. I've been toying with the idea of selling it, and it'd make a perfect track toy.
No matter what, have fun, be a good student and soak it all in.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Thanks! Yes, I'm a PCA member and will check out an auto cross event soon. And also guys, I've been driving manual transmission cars since I was 16 (40 now) so I can drive a manual pretty well. I just need to learn how to heel/toe shift, rev match, etc and learn to properly drive a manual car in a track environment.
For the NC Miata, would a Grand Touring model with 6-speed manual and hard top work? I am 6' 1" and need to make sure I'll fit in ok with helmet.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:
Welcome to GRM!! By your username, I'm guessing you work for Streetside Classics? If so, that's awesome!!
My wife & I are the owners of Streetside, we started the company back 2008. Thanks for the detailed reply!
I recommend a 05-14 Mustang, add tires, dampers, sway bars, from your favorite supplier. Go have fun.
My 08 at 3-400hp is fast enough to be entertaining but not a handful. I went with Steeda for a multipurpose suspension, other brands are more track focused with stiffer springs and softer sway bars.
Or a smaller, lighter car for a more sporty feel, just get an Elise.
Which of your current cars would you most like to grow into skills wise? Maybe pick a less powerful and costly version of that car.
As far as Miata goes, I did a quick dig and grabbed as much as I could that seemed relevant in no particular order:
Also worth mentioning our project cars. Lots of useful tech that can be applied to a lot of different cars:
Whatever car you see as the equivalent of a slow, dirty old dirtbike should be the one you pick for this endeavor. That's what I tell anyone who wants to get into riding motorcycles on the street. Most people never listen.
The ego is not your friend.
In reply to StreetsideClassics :
I'm local! Down in albemarle if you need anything
StreetsideClassics said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
Thanks! Yes, I'm a PCA member and will check out an auto cross event soon. And also guys, I've been driving manual transmission cars since I was 16 (40 now) so I can drive a manual pretty well. I just need to learn how to heel/toe shift, rev match, etc and learn to properly drive a manual car in a track environment.
For the NC Miata, would a Grand Touring model with 6-speed manual and hard top work? I am 6' 1" and need to make sure I'll fit in ok with helmet.
You'd have to check with the racing organization if they'd allow the hard top convertible. I presume so, but just be sure. Note that the early years of the NC had a pretty floppy suspension, but that's easily remedied. There's a phenomenal vendor on our board, Keith Tanner, who owns Flyin' Miata. If you don't go Miata, plenty of other choices. My second option would be Mustang, because of reasons already mentioned.
Don't worry about heel/toe and things like that now. You want to learn the basics of putting a car on the track. Braking points, turn in, apex, etc... Heel/toe can come later. Honestly, I've got 50+ endurance road races and 20+ track days under my belt and I don't know how to heel/toe. It's something I never learned. I'd like to, and maybe someday I will. Sure, I lose a bit of lap time to those who can, but I'm in it for fun. Besides, my lap times are damn competitive with my teammates, so I don't think I lose that much....
If you want to learn car control faster (learn quicker) at even lower speeds dirt is your best friend. Dirt courses also have less crash barriers in general.
In reply to StreetsideClassics :
I'm sorry for going off on learning to shift. I'm sure based on your statement you're ready for some track time.
The question is now Autocross or road race?
Autocross while it teaches you some things, the hard parts of road racing aren't there.
Situational awareness for example. That car behind you is he going to over take you, or take away your line for the next corner? Do you know how to drive to the cars potential, off line? Racing in the rain? How are your wet weather skills at the limit?
Racing in a crowd? Can you adapt to others pace? You can't back off to give him room. You worked too hard to close up. If you back off now, will you have another chance to catch him before the finish line?
In a great way road racing is more like chess than the checkers of Autocross. Passing a slower car for example. Can you do it in such a way that your competition loses more time than you do? Or use the slower driver to gain track position?
The line and braking points are often variable. Have you considered your moves when someone ahead of you suddenly dumps oil or water/ both from his engine failure?
Do you know yet who you can trust and which drivers tend to do sudden stupid things? How quickly can you judge correctly another drivers skills or experience?
That's the attraction of road racing to me. It's a high speed chess game played on several levels. You can have a slower car yet achieve better than faster cars. Or Vice a Versa.
It's really boring to just drive around in the front of a pack of cars. The joy is when you are dicing with a driver of similar potential skills.
Remember we all put our pants on one leg at a time and you always will be making mistakes. ( as will he) That corner could have been taken just that slim fraction of a second faster or braking done a bit better.
Friendships will be formed with a diverse group of people and the resulting fun will be all the better for it.
My problem is the sore face muscles from grinning after the race. I don't care where I finish as long as it's a good dice.
