How many of us are tracking sub 200 horsepower cars?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That's looks like Formula Mazda; the cowling looks like an original FM but the wing looks like a Pro Mazda. FM is a 1350 with 180Hp rotary and Pro-M is 1400lb with 250HP.  

Just as a metric; at the RunOffs  they were 26 seconds a lap faster than Spec Miata.

I've driven a comparable car and yes there is a lot going on:

I was once doing some testing at Spring Mtn, and a friend, who was chief instructor, was in a Z06 with a Student riding along. He was doing around 115 mph,  I went past just before his brake marker, going around 10mph faster. I braked, turned in and was through the corner before he finished braking. This level of car will stick with 450-500hp cars down the straights.

This was all the student talked about all weekend. Before the practical demonstration the guy had wanted a similar type of car, afterwards he decided he needed way more seat time before stepping into that level of car. 

As you can tell I really love single seat cars; road cars just can't compare.

Tom1200 said:

As you can tell I really love single seat cars; road cars just can't compare.

The problem with single seaters is that there are very few venues to drive them unless you're going wheel-to-wheel racing.  Around here 95% of track days don't allow open wheel cars at all (I believe due to insurance concerns about interlocking wheels and going airborne), and while most of them will let you drive a sports racer like a Radical or Spec Racer Ford it's still pretty dangerous to mix those on track with normal cars.  They're so much faster than "normal" cars and so much harder to see that they tend to surprise people, and the weight imbalance vs something like a Dodge Charger means the driver of the Radical is not going to come off well.

Even if you get past the safety concerns, driving a car that's capable of 1:25 (Laguna Seca times) when the rest of your run group is 15-20 seconds per lap slower than you is an exercise in frustration.

Tom1200 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That's looks like Formula Mazda; the cowling looks like an original FM but the wing looks like a Pro Mazda.

It looks like a Stohr F1000 to me, which would have been Formula B a few years ago.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I've been on track as the fast outlier and you definitely surprise people. They'll make moves based on the assumption that nobody is there. Just about lost both side mirrors on the front straight at Laguna Seca when a Spec Miata moved over on me and I had to get between him and the wall at full chat. He just wasn't expecting something that looked like a Spec Miata to have 3-4 times as much power as a SM and to be closing that fast. After that, I started lifting when I came over the crest because the cars going into the braking zone at turn 2 hadn't seen me coming. It wasn't frustrating but it sure wasn't the way to set a lap record. If I was out there to set times, it would have been a downer.

I didn't have to worry about the formula car pictured in my previous post, but I have shared the track with Formula Fords that didn't use their mirrors and that was a little frightening for me because I was afraid I was going to squash one.

red_stapler said:

Tom1200 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That's looks like Formula Mazda; the cowling looks like an original FM but the wing looks like a Pro Mazda.

It looks like a Stohr F1000 to me, which would have been Formula B a few years ago.

F1000 sounds familiar as a name. This was 2013 and my notes say "one step below Formula Atlantic". IIRC it was a bike engine, definitely not a rotary. And according to Wiki, it was under 200 hp so it is eligible for this thread 

A bit of internet sleuthing suggests it is probably Jake Latham in a Stohr F1000.

In reply to red_stapler :

That's some top-shelf stalking right there. Gorgeous car.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Tom1200 said:

As you can tell I really love single seat cars; road cars just can't compare.

The problem with single seaters is that there are very few venues to drive them unless you're going wheel-to-wheel racing.  Around here 95% of track days don't allow open wheel cars at all (I believe due to insurance concerns about interlocking wheels and going airborne), and while most of them will let you drive a sports racer like a Radical or Spec Racer Ford it's still pretty dangerous to mix those on track with normal cars.  They're so much faster than "normal" cars and so much harder to see that they tend to surprise people, and the weight imbalance vs something like a Dodge Charger means the driver of the Radical is not going to come off well.

Even if you get past the safety concerns, driving a car that's capable of 1:25 (Laguna Seca times) when the rest of your run group is 15-20 seconds per lap slower than you is an exercise in frustration.

 

I can only speak for the SRF3, which I've done 4-5 track days with now.  All of the track day organizers around here have no problem with me bringing it out.  My lap times are pretty similar to the fast door slammers... Corvettes, GT350's, etc.  On most tracks race laps in SRF3 are 4ish seconds faster than SM, so they're fast but nothing like the formula cars.  The Radicals are another 4ish seconds faster than SRF3.  They are hard to see for other cars, but as long as you know that going in and plan accordingly you're fine.  Even the fast groups at track days are required to give point by's, if you try to pass someone without one then you do so at your own peril.  Honestly I've had fewer issues at track days in the SRF3 than I did in the SM.  They're both hard to see, but people seem to have an easier time giving a point-by to something that looks like a race car.  I've done numerous laps on the rear bumper of 911's simply because the owners couldn't accept that someone in a Miata was faster than them.  Even the corner workers won't give a blue flag because they know the 911 <should> be faster.  You just have to pit out and give people like that space, there's no other solution.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Tom1200 said:

As you can tell I really love single seat cars; road cars just can't compare.

The problem with single seaters is that there are very few venues to drive them unless you're going wheel-to-wheel racing.  Around here 95% of track days don't allow open wheel cars at all (I believe due to insurance concerns about interlocking wheels and going airborne), and while most of them will let you drive a sports racer like a Radical or Spec Racer Ford it's still pretty dangerous to mix those on track with normal cars.  They're so much faster than "normal" cars and so much harder to see that they tend to surprise people, and the weight imbalance vs something like a Dodge Charger means the driver of the Radical is not going to come off well.

Even if you get past the safety concerns, driving a car that's capable of 1:25 (Laguna Seca times) when the rest of your run group is 15-20 seconds per lap slower than you is an exercise in frustration.

 

I can only speak for the SRF3, which I've done 4-5 track days with now.  All of the track day organizers around here have no problem with me bringing it out.  My lap times are pretty similar to the fast door slammers... Corvettes, GT350's, etc.  On most tracks race laps in SRF3 are 4ish seconds faster than SM, so they're fast but nothing like the formula cars.  The Radicals are another 4ish seconds faster than SRF3.  They are hard to see for other cars, but as long as you know that going in and plan accordingly you're fine.  Even the fast groups at track days are required to give point by's, if you try to pass someone without one then you do so at your own peril.  Honestly I've had fewer issues at track days in the SRF3 than I did in the SM.  They're both hard to see, but people seem to have an easier time giving a point-by to something that looks like a race car.  Certain people in high-dollar cars just refuse to give a point-by to a Miata on principle, those are the guys that ruin it for everyone.

Yes, SRFs are similar to normal track day car speeds, but Radicals (at least the newer carbon-monocoque ones like the SR3) are much faster than that.  Spec Miata lap record at Laguna is a 1:45, SR3s commonly do laps faster than 1:30.  The fragility and invisibility concerns are common between them, though.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Interesting, most of the orginizations in the South-east don't even note Exocet's or the like. West coast NASA cared, but - weirdly - the only requirement was ANY fender over the tire. Like .... anything as long as it resembled a fender, and then you could run. lol - I always found that funny. I'm sure it was something in the wording of their insurance.

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to red_stapler :

That's some top-shelf stalking right there. Gorgeous car.

That is seriously a really pretty car.

I'd be surprised if this had 100hp. It's still much more capable than I am.

In reply to cmcgregor (Forum Supporter) :

Is your car a 1.6 or a 1.8? I don't think the 1.8's are quite that down on power even stock, 1.6 you'd be doing good w/ 100whp - lol. My 1.6 was a very, very healthy motor and it still was over 4 seconds slower a lap than the exact same setup and tires after my 1.8 swap.

In reply to accordionfolder :

1.6, plus 237k miles haha. Still runs fine and has decent compression but I imagine I'm slightly down from new.

In reply to cmcgregor (Forum Supporter) :

Heh, you might be right on the button then! You can learn a lot about getting on power early and leaving it on in a 1.6 car. I will say, I wish I hadn't stayed with the 1.6. brakes as long as I did - I didn't find a need for increased stopping power, but it was easier to avoid lockup after moving to the  BBK. BUT I'm sure some of that was pad choice, the Hawk pad I was using was definitely not my favorite. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I should have caught this when you said Formula B; I seem to recall F1000 turned into FB. From memory I think they are 1000lbs with driver and 200hp.

I've not driven a F1000 but have driven a Stohr P2 car which will slightly slower  lap times (about 1-2 seconds).

My Miata (NB1) dynoed earlier this year at a sad 109 HP. A ways off class max but still enough to set a few local/small org track records if you're OK with a bit of white-knuckled driving. It seems like the average HP of the cars new drivers are bringing has vaulted up massively in the past few years though. Lots of first-timers in what would have been considered a "high HP" car 10 years ago. Most of them seem to do OK, at least as far as not banging up the car goes. It is admittedly frustrating at bigger tracks being within a few seconds of the guy parking it in every corner though.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

For years it was common for D-sports and C-sports racers to be converted Formula cars.

When I say single seaters I'm including sports racers in that category as these days most racing sports racers SRF, P1 & P2 cars are single seat cars.

I almost forgot:

Adding to the story about the D-sports racer vs Corvette; right after I ran my sports racer around a friend asked.me to do some laps in his vintage Formula Vee. So in the same section where I blew past the vette, I was going 30 mph slower, braked 150ft sooner and went sailing through the corner in a huge 4 wheel drift and almost stuck it in the gravel trap.

So going back the other way can be hazardous as well!

I ran for three years in my STS car, which dyno'd 118 RWHP. At some tracks it was good but at others it was frustrating being the slowest guy in the group. I made a compilation of getting passed 71 times in three sessions at Pittrace.

Then I went to TTNats and by the end of the weekend I was gridding up as the last driver in the slowest of the Advanced groups.

Switched to the NC this year (160 WHP I think) and while it's still very safe and very predictable and even still pretty cheap to run as far as brakes and tires go, it's far more entertaining. 10 seconds faster than the '90 at NCM, 11 seconds faster at VIR, etc. I hate to give up on the '90 since that's my forever car, but I get run over a lot less by the Camaros and Mustangs when I'm in the NC.

In reply to Claff :

This is my Datsun on old tires and my 80 whp back up motor. It's pretty much the same experience.

On track starts at 10:00. Got to 19:40 to see a Radical go past like it was shot out of a cannon.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QcLeGQTMyGY

93 BMW 530i = 218 factory rated hp in 3900ish lbs.

I started Lemons racing in a 1986 Civic Si with a whopping 91 hp. Even stripped to the bone, it was slow as molasses.  After 7-8 races it was no fun to drive, much like driving in rush hour with a car that couldn't get out of its own way. 

So we built a new car. A 1978 B210 with a whopping 68 hp. It was painfully slow.

I much prefer to drive my 280 hp G35.

Me in the sub 150 hp car.