HPDE Track Car Choices

I have participated in HPDE in the past in a Porsche 996 C4 and then a 2004 350Z. I was a solo level driver in the PCA Goldcoast and Suncoast regions and NASA and an instuctor for PBOC and Chim Motorsports. My wife and I are looking to get back involved in HPDE and I am looking for some advice on car choices. My wife can drive a stick, but would like to begin her novice career in a vehicle without a clutch. I will also be using this car at events and have narrowed the field to cars having either sequential manual or dual clutch gearboxes. So far I have found the BMW M3 SMG, the VW GTI, the Audi TT, the Mitsubishi Evolution MR and Ralliart and finally the Toyota MR2 Spyder as options. In the past my modifications were focussed on safety (harness or roll bar, racing seat, 5 or 6 point harnesses, fire bottle) and suspension (stiffer springs, larger antiroll bars) and big brakes (Brembo) with air ducts. I had track wheels and used Hoosier slicks and later after the Hoosier compound change Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. I would appreciate any advice regarding the above vehicle choices and suggested modifications and wheel/tire choices. Reliability is an issue, as the car will be seeing double duty at year round track day events in Florida at PBIR, Homestead, Sebring and Daytona. I am leaning toward the M3 because of it's power. I am used to running vehicles with about 300 HP. I would not be doing any power mods to this choice, just a harness bar and suspension mods. I expect to purchase the car for around $20,000 and add little in mod costs. How would the SMG be in manual mode with regard to speed of shifts? I suspect that Dual Clutch gearboxes would be faster shifting. On the other hand the Toyota MR2 appeals because of its light weight and small size. My wife is 5 feet and weighs less than 100 pounds. I believe she may feel more comfortable in the Toyota. Also, given my kart racing experience, I believe i may enjoy the handling of this lighter choice. I would expect to purchase one for about $10,000 and then do a lot of mods including big brakes, suspension, roll bar to make it legal, but also engine rebuilding and turbocharging to increase the power up from 140 HP. Would this be a reliable choice? Also, what wheel size and tire choices are available and would be suggested? Or would the GTI make more sense because of the DSG? I know there is a large aftermarket upgrade availability. I also think it would need power mods since the HP is around 200. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated and thank you all in advance.

Which SMG M3? The E36 SMG has a horrible reputation over here, with a lot of people changing back to a regular manual when the SMG box breaks. Later ones are supposed to be a lot better.

Circa 2000, the E46 i believe. In reply to BoxheadTim:

The E46 M3 is an awesome dual purpose car with a little bit of suspension work. As long as the motor has been updated they are reliable and hardy. I have a friend who had an SMG and it performed well enough although he sold it to buy a manual car.

I think if your wife can already drive a manual you would do well to convince her its the right thing to do... really its couple days of driving to have the confidence vs the cost, weight and limited models having the DSG/SMG.

All of that said - I prefer a lighter, smaller, less valuable track car and if you can afford $25k plus for an SMG E46 M3 then you can afford to have a cheap track car that can be more focused and a very nice street car. E36 M3, Boxster, Miata... M Coupe, MR-2... E30, S2000 etc.

I had an '02 SMG M3. I did 93 track days in it over three years. I strongly, strongly prefer, by far, without hesitation, the SMG. (Just hoping to get my point across!) It was absolutely the selling point of the car, for me. In S6 it shifts FAST on the track.

I started melting brakes in that car. Ducting is a must. Somewhere around here I have pictures of my brakes glowing at Gingerman...

For the most part, it handled severe track duty and regular street driving without missing a beat. It's still in my top 3 favorite cars I've had. I sold it in '05, so I had all the SMG software upgrades up til that point and never had an issue. I had all three rod bearing "service actions" performed and all three times they came out looking brand new and unmarred, again after a terribly expensive number of track days.

I haven't driven a VW DSG, but I have driven the paddle-shift MR2. I was not impressed. I love the regular 5 speed, but the paddle-shift gearbox just didn't respond the way my SMG did.

The vw DSG is $$$ for maintaince, about $4k in 100k miles. I havent heard good things about the dealers honoring the warranty on them either. It sounds like the M3 may be decent, but otherwise Im not sure a car without a clutch pedal is going to be a good longterm choice.

93 track days in 3 years. that is a great amount of seat time. and a true testament to the reliability of the M3 SMG as a track day option. can you talk about any mods you did and your wheel/tire package? did you have brake ducts fabricated? another advantage to me of the BMW is that the shop I used for mods and track preparation/support specializes in porsche and bmw. In fact they are a dinan supplier. thanks. In reply to Lugnut:

My best times at Blackhawk Farms were low 1:19s, Gingerman (aside from a fluke that skews my averages down, I must have been drafting someone or my flux capacitor was fully charged!) was about a high 1:32.

I ran a set of stock 18" wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups (245 front and 265 rear, I think, I don't remember for sure, my log is around somewhere), Borla mufflers, an AFE intake, Turner brake duct plates, Pagid Black/HT-10/PFC-01 (my favorites) on OEM euro two-piece rotors, and Schroth buckle-in four-point belts. That's it. No suspension modifications. And just like that, it ran right along with the Z06s, GT3s, 993 Cup cars and whatever else ran in our A-group.

It was terribly fun to drive. Against the wisdom of the ///M community at large, I sold my E30 M3 because after I got my E46 I just wasn't driving anymore.

Miata. It's a seriously good car for HPDE and it's a convertible. (Miata is always the answer.)

I know a guy who runs an E46 M3 with the SMG. He likes its track manners and he insists that it is a great street car with that transmission. If you want a little more power, then this is a good way to go.

Your wife will benefit from learning a few things about manual transmission work on a race track. She doesn't have to drive the car anywhere near the limit, and she will learn good techniques that you don't always pick up driving on the road. For example, I had a student who was old enough that his son helped him sort out his auto-x / track-day Miata. He had driven manual cars for many years (perhaps his whole life). Until I taught him last year, he had never heard of rev-matching downshifts. He would press the clutch in, shift down a gear, and simply let the clutch out. He learned it at the track and hopefully, he translated it to the street.

Drive all the cars, decide which one you like driving the most, and base your decision on that. It doesn't have to be the fastest thing at the track--trust me. In fact, if you two are just beginning and can afford to change cars in two years, starting with a Miata just might be the way to go. You will learn the fundamentals and won't go crazy just trying to keep the thing on the pavement.

$20k will buy a very nicely setup track Miata of any generation.

For that budget, I'd get a nice newish NC and add a roll bar, seats, belts and suspension.

Having raced karts as well, I strongly prefer a lighter car with good weight distribution. The Miata and RX7, RX8 feel very light and nimble even stock. The e36 and e46 especially feel heavier with a lot more body movement and slower to respond to inputs as a result. Potent track machines just different flavors that might tickle the taste buds differently depending on preference.

The Evo is a great option as well but AWD.

The Honda S2000 is a great track car as well and will be faster than the NC out of the box.

The Boxster is a decent car in that price range too. Nicely balanced chassis. Good power.

I'm not the biggest fan of the more recent VWs. They are rather heavy and mushy overall. Brakes seem mediocre as well. And they are FWD which just isn't much fun IMO on track.

Can you elaborate on the maintenance costs and warranty issues? In reply to Travis_K:

Thanks for the info. Did you use the Schroth belts with the stock seat? In reply to Lugnut:

What does NC mean? In reply to amg_rx7:

$13,500 and ready to go!

As far as maitnace costs, someone on here works at a ve dealer and in another thread they posted the costs for dsg service at the dealer over either 80 or 100k miles, and it came out to like $3500. I have no personal experience with warranty issues, but i have read numerous message board posted where the dealers idea of proper function isnt always the same as the owners (or the same as other cars), and you only get it fixed if the dealer agrees its broken.

mhershorn wrote: What does NC mean? In reply to amg_rx7:

NC is the chassis code of a 2006 or later MX-5/Miata

NA=1990-1997

NB=1999-2005

NC=2006-

BTW, one of the guys I was on trackwith today had a DSG-equipped Audi TTS. Very nice. Looked to be handling well, definitely had a reasonable amount of scoot (or at least more than my RX-8).

If you're really hot for no left peddle, and thinking the MR-2, one really nice thing is the bolt pattern and wheel/tire size. You'll be able to pick up used equipment from the Spec Miata, Spec E30, and Honda Challenge folks easily.

If this is something your wife is just getting started in, I wouldn't even bother doing anything fancy with the engine. Keep it as a momentum for her first year or two.

Why not get a car with a clutch pedal? If heel-toe isn't something she wants to futz with her first couple of times at a track, just rent or borrow something for the first couple of track days. Or, do her first 1-3 track days in the DD sedan for her to get used to finding her way around the track.

In reply to mhershorn: Personally I would choose the lightest car I could find like a first or second gen. miata, I am sure you have witnessed how much the porsche goes through consumables. The lightweight cars will be more cost effective to run.

especially if your having it do double-duty, i'd go with the lightest, cheapest car out there (MIATA), toss a cage and a good seat in it, and just have fun.

so reasonable to buy, so cheap to drive, parts are EVERYWHERE. many trackdays will be filled with them, meaning you'll have built-in spares if you have friends there, and if you or the wife ball it up on track, who cares?!!!

I've got an '06 VW GTI DSG, and contrary to popular opinion here, I haven't gone completely broke fixing things on it. The $4k maintenance estimate over 100k miles would be hilariously high for the entire car, much less the transmission. The DSG trans needs a fluid and filter change every 40k miles. That's it. It's about $400 to have the dealer do it, MUCH less if you DIY or have an indy shop do it. Other than that the service schedule includes such things as oil changes, cabin filter replacement, etc... Oh the monetary horrors.

My car already had an entire transmission replaced under warranty for a dual-mass flywheel failure. I've had nothing but good experiences otherwise.

A lot of the horror stories about the transmissions you hear on the internet come from people who expect it to be a traditional converter style automatic. If you puss around in it in auto mode it can be a bit odd. They really only work well in manual mode driven hard. The normal operation of this transmission does include things like harder than normal shifts in extreme cold, occasionally starting in second gear, stuff like that. The dealers can't fix it when it isn't broken.

Over 40k hard miles my oh-so-unreliable-on-GRM GTI has needed a flywheel, A/C pressure switch, lower control arm bushings (they were squeaking and it bugged me, dealer replaced them at my request), and the radio reprogrammed, all under warranty. I'm not quite sure where all the VW hate on here came from, but everyone I talk to with a new GTI has nothing but praise.

It is getting a little long in the tooth but what about a 968? The wife and I are actually thinking that this will be my next "toy". I get a front engine water cooled Porsche (makes me happy), I can get a tiptronic (not as satisfying to drive to me as a std but I can live with it). She can drive it in full auto mode (she does not do standard) so she will not feel "excluded" from using the car.

The bad is I don't think you get 300hp but these cars can be made to Handel and stop with the best of them.

Budget wise I think it would be spot on with the 968.

thanks for the info on the DSG in the GTI. A pre-owned GTI would be a good lower cost alternative to the M3 and could be upgraded with stiffer springs and a big break kit. All of the enthusiasm expressed for the Miata is appreciated, but I have to honor my wife's request and I could not live with the lack of direct control of a torque converter in an automatic. The point about a lower cost and light track toy makes a lot of sense. My past HPDE cars (Porsche and 350Z) were hard on tires and brake pads. I am thinking now about going for a relatively lower cost MR2 Spyder with SMT. We would have to throw in a cage to make it club legal, a seat and harnesses. I would get a second set of wheels and track tires, maybe fabricate brake ducts. Then we could just have fun with it and see what develops. If we keep the car over time I would do suspension. Rota has a big brake kit and there is a turbo kit for the SMT version available. You gotta love a track car that is less than 2,200 pounds. I always found my past track cars to be too unlike my kart racing experience. They were big and heavy and very insulated from the road. A very different driving experience. All that weight and momentum.

I was thinking about the 944, but then we are back to a manual vs. an automatic. A friend of mine used to use a race prepped 944S for driver ed and it was a low cost altrernative, though he did have to trailer it to events. In reply to dean1484:

excellent point about the wheel size and bolt pattern. In reply to Salanis:

lightest and cheapest makes so much sense! In reply to redzcstandardhatch: