I've been eyeing FRS/BRZs since they were released, waiting for the day clean ones are sub 10k to pick up as a general purpose rallycross/track day/back road type of vehicle. That day has come, sortof. There's plenty of rebuilt/salvage in that range, very occasionally an extremely high mileage, and of course, the engine faliures. The latter has piqued my intrest.
It seems botched valve spring recalls are to blame for quite a few 2013 engine failures. 50-100k replacement engines appear to be about 2.5-4k, I assume a rebuild can be done for less DIY, but there may be risk of collateral damage from excess sealant. Used engines may bring the same risk of valve spring issues.
Right now I'm eyeing an apparently clean 2013 w/ 68k miles, rod knock, & a fresh clutch for $6,500 asking. If I could find my way to a solid FRS for 9k it's looking real tempting. These projects always cost more than expected, what should I really budget? As an aside, R&R an engine is well within my comfort zone. I've only rebuilt 2-strokes, so a rebuild would really be my first. I have a shop it can live in, I don't need to rely on it (I have a DD and commute to work via bike). This wouldn't be an upgrade type build, the big appeal of an FRS to me is it's pretty much perfect stock, manual, LSD, suspension that works on dirt & pavement, reasonably light.
Used engines only would bring a risk of valve spring issues if you replace the 2013 with another 2013. You can pretty much use any Frisbie engine in any year Frisbie - for some you'll need to change over sensors etc, but the engine is fundamentally the same.
I do think you budget is a bit tight if you don't know what parts were damaged. With oil starvation you can damage pretty much every bearing surface, so having to find replacements for those parts could get pretty costly.
BTW, I think you'll need some additional money in your budget for other mods before tracking the car (and I assume Rally-X would be the same). At the very minimum you'll need an oil cooler, plus on a 2013 you'll likely also want a tune. That's going to be another grand on top, if not more.
Oh, and if you have the motor apart and it's really just damage to the bearings, probably still want to add an improved oil pump and/or oil pickup.
Another edit - I don't seem to be able to find cam bearing for these, only crank and rod bearings. I'd double check if these actually run the cams in replaceable bearings, because otherwise you might have to find replacement heads if those bearing surfaces have been damaged.
Good to know the valve spring is a one year only problem. Quick search shows most of the motors on car-part are 2014+ anyway. Collateral damage is a valid concern, probably best to just budget for a used motor. I don't think these would need much aside from a set of tires for rallycross, I belief one placed in nationals a few years ago on stock suspension, not sure if had an aftermarket skid plate or not. I always assuming I'm putting a set of tires on any vehicle I buy at some point in the near future. A few $ for nice to have, but not required mods is fine as it can be done at my own pace. Track use is definitely a solid third in the priority list as I have a lemons car I'm building to get that fix.
In reply to Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah, it looks like the valve spring recall is 2013 only: https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/staticcontent/en/techinfo/html/prelogin/docs/cp/j02tofaq.pdf
The engines are known for running stupidly high oil temperatures stock, so a least for track use, an oil cooler is a must have. Not sure how that translates to Rally-X, but I'd at least monitor oil temps.
The "nice to have" mod is a header and a tune to mostly eliminate the torque dip between 3k and 4k rpm. On my stock BRZ that feels more like a torque cliff...
DirtyBird222 said:
honda k24
can't say I haven't considered it. That seems like a sure fire way to blow a budget though.
DirtyBird222 said:
honda k24
Shame that it isn't emissions legal.
I would assume that any OHC engine that has had oiling issues has No User Servicable Parts Inside. The cam journals generally get destroyed, and even if they were merely scored, you will be forever chasing oil pressure or cam phaser problems.
You might get lucky, I did rod bearings in an FB engine (close cousin to FA) that the cam journals were fine. But they put oil in it as soon as the oil pressure light came on, so it wasn't chronically run with low/no top end oil.
mdshaw
Reader
3/26/21 4:47 p.m.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Why isn't a K24 emissions legal? I left California many years ago & haven't kept up with the emissions rules except cat & sniffer test in Idaho & now in Florida there are no emissions except obviously having a cat.
I personally want to K swap the world, having done a simple one & gathering parts for 2 more. Glad we're in Florida. The Frisbee is one of the best candidates I think but we're doing cheaper ones right now but eventually will do one.
In reply to NOHOME :
That might be a tad outside the budget.
Oddly enough, I've looked up the swap kits, you know, just in case.
In reply to mdshaw :
The ones I am familar with use a Link ECU (IIRC, definitely an aftermarket unit), which can talk to the Subaru CAN so the gauges and HVAC and stuff work. No OBD-II means no passing emissions.
I mean, I am sure it could be done with a Honda computer, but you'd need to transfer over the Honda evap system, figure out how to make the Honda immobilizer system work, and engineer a CAN translation box like FM did for the LS3 - ND swap.
I suppose it isn't insurmountable, but unless you have the skillz (ask Keith about the fun of learning CAN data and then spoofing it), or someone else does the legwork, which they will surely charge accordingly for ("if you're good at something, never do it for free!"), an S2000 with a hardtop looks a lot more practical.
mdshaw
Reader
3/26/21 7:14 p.m.
Or live in in Florida I guess.
I would never consider rebuilding a modern engine that needs crankshaft work. There's going to be a junkyard motor somewhere way cheaper, with factory sizes on the bearings and a crank that hasn't worked 3/4 of the way through the hard surfacing.
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
Not even a Chrysler 2.4 after it ate the thrust surface when the thrust bearing died?
Heck, they (used to, at least) make a repair kit consisting of the bearings and seals you'd need, and a crankshaft. Although I did do a couple where we just sent the crank out to be welded and ground back to size.
(although, given that it's an iron block engine with fixed cam timing, directly tracing its ancestry to the 2.2, one could argue that it is not a modern engine)
Well, people keep yeeting them into the scenery so there is a supply of used engines. Who good they are might be another discussion given that they do have a few known weak points (rods, for example) but probably a better choice than an engine that has just tried to inhale silicone gasket goo via the oil pickup.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Different story, when you have a massive design failure, and the better engines don't fit because of crank sensor situations.
Not much 2.4 powered stuff out there that is worth the price of a new crank anymore.
Short block from Subaru is surprisingly cheap.
I basically went through this when I bought mine- 2013, knocking engine, 50k miles. I put a 2016 engine with 40k miles on it in (bought from car-part) with a 6 month warranty, added an oil cooler and Killer B oil pickup, and rallycrossed it 9 times within the warranty window with no issues.
I was right at your budget of about $9k between the car and the replacement engine, they're easy to work on so it wasn't super time consuming either.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
It was like you went from picking up a hurt car to driving it with its new engine in like two hours... after re-engineering the suspension pickup points while the engine was out
(I'm almost done getting my PR car back on the road... I've had it for three and a half years but it feels like I just got it... so, in that perspective....)
thanks for the feedback all. I've spent my fair share of time trolling the swap kits, definitely not in the cards at this point. It looks like used motor is right approach as a rebuild would present a lot of risk w/ unknown internals and general lack of talent.
After running the idea past the better half, I was surprised there was no push back on budget, only the requirement that I don't take on another project. That was a clear green light for me, as I've justified to myself that replacing an engine isn't a project.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:
I basically went through this when I bought mine- 2013, knocking engine, 50k miles. I put a 2016 engine with 40k miles on it in (bought from car-part) with a 6 month warranty, added an oil cooler and Killer B oil pickup, and rallycrossed it 9 times within the warranty window with no issues.
I was right at your budget of about $9k between the car and the replacement engine, they're easy to work on so it wasn't super time consuming either.
good data point, I've wasted a few hours lurking through your build thread. Talking to the seller this afternoon, we'll see if this car is worth pursuing.
Whelp, that car turned out to be an R title. I swear I asked early on, but I must have missed it. How does someone not feel the need to post that information in an ad? I almost landed another one (this time in blue, hot damn it looks good) w/ high ish miles & a working motor for $9500 but i was just too slow on the draw. Instead of being patient and maxing my (self imposed) budget on a vehicle that continues to depreciate, I did the right thing and bought a cheap BMW. So much for not getting a project.
Deposit placed on this beast, '04 ZHP, properly used, also R title. At least it was cheap-ish. I'll be picking it up this saturday, already sourced a set of used Bilstein HDs (and hopefully stock springs) to get it back to reasonable rallycross height. Next job is to get a set of 17" wheels and some acceptable rallycross tires. Are altimax's still the easy button? I've been reading about high performance summer/all seasons for more hard packed areas. I don't think the stock brakes will let me go lower than 17".
I ordered a set of the rear subframe mount reinforcement plates, not sure if i'll have time to get them installed before the next race (4/11). How much risk am I of doing serious damage beating on a well used E46 prior to reinforcement?
*mini picture since the upload doesn't play nice w/ aspec ratios.
Well, this thread certainly has taken a turn for the awesome 
Altimaxes are not what they used to be. Winterforces are DEFINITELY not what they used to be!
What size are you looking to get?
Note that Stock does allow a 1" change in wheel diameter and .5" change in width, if that opens the tire options up.
Streetwiseguy said:
I would never consider rebuilding a modern engine that needs crankshaft work. There's going to be a junkyard motor somewhere way cheaper, with factory sizes on the bearings and a crank that hasn't worked 3/4 of the way through the hard surfacing.
This. There are so many of these things that got totalled and have good motors it would be silly to even consider rebuilding over a replacement.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Well, this thread certainly has taken a turn for the awesome
Altimaxes are not what they used to be. Winterforces are DEFINITELY not what they used to be!
What size are you looking to get?
Note that Stock does allow a 1" change in wheel diameter and .5" change in width, if that opens the tire options up.
Hopefully, I'll find out how awesome when I pick it up....
I'm planning on 17" wheels, I think it's on 18" BBS currently. I'll have to review the rules, but it will most likely fall in MR. Apparently it has a dinan intake, headers, un-resonated mid-pipe, and aftermarket muffler. Since the cats on these are integrated into the exhaust manifold, that means it's running cat-less (and loud). I plan on having a muffler shop weld in a high-flow aftermarket cat to the mid-pipe at some point to appease conscience (and nose).
Bummer to hear about the alitmax (and winterforce). Any suitable substitutes or are the new versions still the go-to? Rally build has 17" gravel tires, but they cost real money and might not be available on any reasonable time frame. Tire rack caries altimax arctics in 225/45/17 for $150 ea, not terrible. I'm generally more concerned about going sideways and kicking up dust than being fast, but if I can do both that's a bonus.
How does the hive feel about the rear subframe attachments, am I risking catastrophic failure if I rallycross as-is? It will ge reinforced, but that might be on a longer time-frame.
In reply to Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) :
The newer Altimax Arctic 12s are still pretty decent on dirt for a snow tire.
There is a pretty long running rallycross e36 thread here- I'm pretty sure he added the reinforcement you're talking about and then some.
