Lern me Model A's

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

The Model A is the oldest car I would cross country in. The Model T's just aren't durable enough to even hope to make a long trip round  with. 
Join the club. But buy yours from someone who inherited theirs and just wants it gone.   There are thousands of dollars difference and really pretty similar shape.  The best deal is from the guy who can't get it started and doesn't want to bother.  The reality is it doesn't get much simpler than a Model A.  
 Owners  know how much they've spent. May have an emotional attachment, Likely really don't want to sell but need money for some reason.  

Woody said:

I really think that a Tudor would be the best Model A for a long road trip. 

And even the sedans will be prone to leaks, as the tops were fabric over wood. Full steel roofs came along later at Ford.

I remember stories about my grandfather re-tarring the roof of his car to keep the water out. 

Model A's with a steel roof keep you from the pleasure of open air motoring.  No Air conditioning except to open the windshield  and roll down the windows makes the car hot and stuffy  on Sunny days without the breeze of open motoring.  
Unlike modern cars the roof doesn't afford any additional safety  in a rollover or accident.  Thus I'd never put seat belts in one.   If kids aren't disciplined enough to sit still and pay attention to where you're going. They either need adult ( non driving) supervision or strapped in the safety of their child seats in the mini van. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Nope, the C? still had the same oiling system. It was an improvement but I am reffering to a redsigned engine.Bottom end is modern with 5 main bearings, redesigned conn rods, counter weighted crankshaft, full pressure oiling with a spin on filter.  Top end was still "A" with some improvements to breathing.   Nothing radical.

 there is an updated write up on the net.

My neighbor kind of a Model T guy...

B

In reply to Woody :

I notice it doesn't say he drove back...

iceracer said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Nope, the C? still had the same oiling system. It was an improvement but I am reffering to a redsigned engine.Bottom IN  end is modern with 5 main bearings, redesigned conn rods, counter weighted crankshaft, full pressure oiling with a spin on filter.  Top end was still "A" with some improvements to breathing.   Nothing radical.

 there is an updated write up on the net.

Thanks for that. Most of those have been done by low budget sprint car racers trying to compete with Offy . it's nice to know somebody put it all together.. 

Streetwiseguy said:

Go find Peter Egan's story from Road & Track, probably 25 years ago, where he and Chris Beebe did one of their long drives (Wisconsin to Los Angeles) in a Model A.  I've never had much to do with them, but that story seemed like it was full of pertinent information for a drive like yours.  The article is in one of his "On the Road" collections, and I would recommend buying the book even if you do find the story online.  I really enjoy his road trip stories.

I'm going to go find that book as soon as I get home, now that I've thought of it.  Haven't read it for several years.

Trying to drive an Isetta to Road Atlanta is a good one, too.

I really enjoyed Peter Eagan and even did a little business with him. Plus we both shared Vintage racing.  

I've got a bunch of pre-war Fords including a 1928 Model A Tudor:

And a 1930 Model A Fordor:

Hopefully this gives you a little more about the differences.  Basically, the 30-31s have a taller grille and hood along with a flatter cowl.  My 1930 had a sealed beam conversion in the lights and has since been converted to proper Model A headlights.  The  28-29s use 21" wheels, the 30-31s use 19" wheels.  None of the body parts interchange.  The chassis are interchangeable with minor modifications and the running gear is all pretty much the same.   Every town has at least one Model A expert with piles of spare parts and lots of helpful experience.   The internet has some good stuff about Model As, but books are where the best knowledge is.  A lot of the experts just aren't digital and most of the internet guys aren't experts.

I feel a Model T is a 30-35 MPH car, a Model A is a 40-45 MPH car, and once you've gotten to 1935-42 you've got a 60-65 MPH car.  With Model A's, people will put overdrives on them or do other modifications to get them to 60+, but for me that's a bit white knuckle with everything else stock.

The sedans are pretty affordable and water tight.  Convertibles are usually twice or more money.  Side curtains could keep you fairly dry, but are a pain.   I think condition drives price more than whether they're 28-29 or 30-31 era.  I prefer the styling of the earlier cars.  

Make sure you take a good ride in one as they're pretty cramped, especially coupes and roadsters.  The sedans are a little better and the back seats are great.  Drive several before you buy one.  Some are smooth and quiet, others vibrate and rattle.  It all depends on the quality of the restoration and especially the engine rebuild.

To follow-up on Frenchyd's comment about seat belts, I have them in my cars.  But I kind of feel like it's just choosing how you'd prefer to die.  If you don't wear them, you die when you get thrown from the car.  If you do wear them, you die when you get crushed in the car.  Either way, the driver will likely get impaled on the steering wheel.

For a long trip, the advice about spare ignition parts is wise.  I'd also plan on flat tires (tube tires rub themselves to death), so bring spare tubes and maybe learn to use a set of tire irons.

It sounds like you've got reasons for the Model A, but the 1935-42 cars are the long distance drivers.  They're out there and about the same money, at least for sedans.   They ride better, handle better, have more power, stop better, probably slightly safer (like one pack a day is probably safer than two packs a day) and have much more room.  Every era of Ford is a big jump forward:  The Model T was way better than the Model A-S that preceded it, the Model A was way better than the Model T, the 1932-34 V8s were better than As, and then the 1935-42 are nearly like modern cars (or at least cars from the 1950s-60s). 

Good luck!

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Woody :

I notice it doesn't say he drove back...

He did not. He was followed by a trailer full of spare parts, but he said that the only issue he had was a flat tire. That car does have an electric starter and Wilwood brakes on the rear though. 

Carl Heideman said:

I've got a bunch of pre-war Fords including a 1928 Model A Tudor:

 

Is that a Model S Runabout behind your A?

I just finished sorting out a Model S for a customer a few months ago. He has a 1908 S Runabout, 1911 T Landaulet, a 1912 Tourabout and a 1931 A Roadster.

Close--it's a 1906 Model N--I've actually got two of them.  For the rest of you, in 1906-08, Ford made the Model N, R and S.  They were the same chassis/drivetrain with slightly different bodies.  In 1908, Ford introduced the T and didn't look back.

I drove that one last week.  It's a hoot.  Did you get to drive the customer's car?

I followed this guys blog of driving a Model A year-round as the daily:

https://www.365daysofa.com/

That's "365 Days of A" not "365 Day Sofa"

In reply to Carl Heideman :

I went with him to the auction, helped him buy it, got it sorted out and so far, I'm the only one who's driven it.

We got really lucky, it's about a 30 year-old restoration but it still has the correct carburetor, coil box and coils. We had to have new wheels built for it, de-scale the cooling system and grind the valve stems for proper clearance but that's about all.

It's a blast but it's as different from a Model T as a T is from an A.

He's good at things like that though, he also has a 1910 Sears Model L Runabout that he drives the wheels off of so the S should be no problem.

He does tend to drive them at 10 tenths though so we modified a set of Rocky Mountain Brakes to work on the S. 

Your body looks very similar to the one we've been working on. Ours has the mother-in-law seat on the back.

I've heard rumours that these engines are prone to break the crankshaft if they're run hard, mostly because Henry put the flywheel on the front. Is there any truth to that?

Really glad to hear from another person with experience on these. There's a couple former owners locally but their memory isn't so hot these days.

Here's the car, he also bought the yellow T Landaulet behind it. We were bidding on a model A (early A) B, C and K at the same auction but got outbid.

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

We need a 365 Day Sofa blog from a Lincoln owner...

Carl Heideman said:

I've got a bunch of pre-war Fords including a 1928 Model A Tudor:

And a 1930 Model A Fordor:

Hopefully this gives you a little more about the differences.  Basically, the 30-31s have a taller grille and hood along with a flatter cowl.  My 1930 had a sealed beam conversion in the lights and has since been converted to proper Model A headlights.  The  28-29s use 21" wheels, the 30-31s use 19" wheels.  None of the body parts interchange.  The chassis are interchangeable with minor modifications and the running gear is all pretty much the same.   Every town has at least one Model A expert with piles of spare parts and lots of helpful experience.   The internet has some good stuff about Model As, but books are where the best knowledge is.  A lot of the experts just aren't digital and most of the internet guys aren't experts.

I feel a Model T is a 30-35 MPH car, a Model A is a 40-45 MPH car, and once you've gotten to 1935-42 you've got a 60-65 MPH car.  With Model A's, people will put overdrives on them or do other modifications to get them to 60+, but for me that's a bit white knuckle with everything else stock.

The sedans are pretty affordable and water tight.  Convertibles are usually twice or more money.  Side curtains could keep you fairly dry, but are a pain.   I think condition drives price more than whether they're 28-29 or 30-31 era.  I prefer the styling of the earlier cars.  

Make sure you take a good ride in one as they're pretty cramped, especially coupes and roadsters.  The sedans are a little better and the back seats are great.  Drive several before you buy one.  Some are smooth and quiet, others vibrate and rattle.  It all depends on the quality of the restoration and especially the engine rebuild.

To follow-up on Frenchyd's comment about seat belts, I have them in my cars.  But I kind of feel like it's just choosing how you'd prefer to die.  If you don't wear them, you die when you get thrown from the car.  If you do wear them, you die when you get crushed in the car.  Either way, the driver will likely get impaled on the steering wheel.

For a long trip, the advice about spare ignition parts is wise.  I'd also plan on flat tires (tube tires rub themselves to death), so bring spare tubes and maybe learn to use a set of tire irons.

It sounds like you've got reasons for the Model A, but the 1935-42 cars are the long distance drivers.  They're out there and about the same money, at least for sedans.   They ride better, handle better, have more power, stop better, probably slightly safer (like one pack a day is probably safer than two packs a day) and have much more room.  Every era of Ford is a big jump forward:  The Model T was way better than the Model A-S that preceded it, the Model A was way better than the Model T, the 1932-34 V8s were better than As, and then the 1935-42 are nearly like modern cars (or at least cars from the 1950s-60s). 

Good luck!

Very well written and I haven't got any arguement. I would just like to add the relative ease to "hotrod" a Model A  can turn it from a 40-50 mile per hour car to a 60-70 mile per hour car without dramatically decreasing its value.  
There is a 1930 roadster  with period modifications   Of a Mercury Flathead 3x2's edelbrock heads. T5 Tranny,  Buick finned aluminum hydraulic brakes , and Buick 15" wire wheels and a 4 inch dropped axle. Halibrand V8 quickchange  

promised to me when it's owner passes. I've driven that hundreds of freeway miles  and the hardest thing is to drive the speed limit. That car is so responsive I constantly need to back off or risk getting a ticket in the take your car away speeding range. 

Good stuff here. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Good stuff here. 

Agreed, I've seen more T & A in this thread than I have in years. 

Walked out to the pole barn last night. It seems the car I was CERTAINLY a Model A was actually a Model T. 

I didn't bring my phone but I will go out there tonight and snap hellamadtyte pics, yo. 

Loosely related, I spent a chunk of time last night looking at Model T speedsters when I should have been sleeping.

Probably not good for a long road trip, but looks like fun.

ShawnG said:

In reply to Carl Heideman :

I went with him to the auction, helped him buy it, got it sorted out and so far, I'm the only one who's driven it.

We got really lucky, it's about a 30 year-old restoration but it still has the correct carburetor, coil box and coils. We had to have new wheels built for it, de-scale the cooling system and grind the valve stems for proper clearance but that's about all.

It's a blast but it's as different from a Model T as a T is from an A.

He's good at things like that though, he also has a 1910 Sears Model L Runabout that he drives the wheels off of so the S should be no problem.

He does tend to drive them at 10 tenths though so we modified a set of Rocky Mountain Brakes to work on the S. 

Your body looks very similar to the one we've been working on. Ours has the mother-in-law seat on the back.

I've heard rumours that these engines are prone to break the crankshaft if they're run hard, mostly because Henry put the flywheel on the front. Is there any truth to that?

Really glad to hear from another person with experience on these. There's a couple former owners locally but their memory isn't so hot these days.

Here's the car, he also bought the yellow T Landaulet behind it. We were bidding on a model A (early A) B, C and K at the same auction but got outbid.

The rumors about the cranks are true.  For the rest of you, the flywheel is behind the radiator and has a fan cast into it.  They figured it could do both jobs up there, but it tended to twist and break in the process.  Model NRS cars are like Model T's in a mirror:  Flywheel in front, timer (like a distributor) in back, intake on left, exhaust on right, driver sits on right, etc.  T's were flywheel in back, timer in front, intake on right, exhaust on left, driver sits on left.  Even the throttle and spark controls on the steering wheel were flipped.  Ford learned a lot from NRS cars that they incorporated into T's.  The biggest thing they "learned" was to enclose the oiling system.  The NRS had a pressurized tank with oil in it.  There were drip valves and tubes plumbed to various parts of the engine and transmission and oil dripped on stuff to lube.  There is a sump under the engine, but the transmission is completely exposed.  Oil drips on it, then flies everywhere.  Total loss.  So if the tank went empty, bad news.  The earlier tanks were pressurized by a small fitting/tube from the exhaust manifold, later cars had a pump.

Needless to say transmission failures were very common, but fortunately someone started making new ones.  Someone else makes new blocks, which are often holed.  I think someone makes cranks too.  

The bodies are similar.  N's all had a small trunk.  N's had small fenders and step plates, R's had fuller fenders with running boards, S's usually had fuller fenders, splash aprons, and running boards.  I think S's were the only ones with the Mother-in-Law seat.   

You may know this, but the "bible" for these cars is Pate's Early Ford Automotive Encyclopedia and Carl Pate usually shows up and holds a pre-T meet and greet at Hershey (no Hershey this year, thanks pandemic).  His book shows up on ebay/amazon used sometimes:  https://www.amazon.com/Pates-Early-Ford-Encyclopedia-1903-1909/dp/B07LDH1ZZD    There's also a club:  https://earlyfordregistry.com/

There is a collector in Portland who I met at an auction in South Dakota that has several pre-T Fords.  I bet he was at the auction you were at too. 

10 tenths is a thrill in these cars.  They're about 15HP (T's are 20), but they're so light that they're quite a bit faster than a T.  Sitting that high in a barrel seat with no windshield makes 35 MPH feel like 135.  

stuart in mn said:

Tom Suddard did a stint driving his grandfather's Model A on a regular basis, and there were some writeups in the magazine: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/classic-cars/am-i-crazy-model-a-content-inside/66467/page1/

That thread is old enough that the links don't work. 

Anyone know how to find them?

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to ShawnG :

LOL "matchbook" :-)

I mean, I know exactly what you're saying and I've done it many times, but I'm 53 years old. :-)

It's going to be easier to find a business card than a matchbook. 

In reply to spitfirebill :

Where's the abrasive on a business card?

Ok, time for my next lesson...

Today I drove my first Model A. 1931 Tudor. 
 

The car is a survivor. Time capsule.  All original, 12K miles. Perfect interior, zero rust. Needs paint. $9900

Man that was fun!  It's a total blast.

I expected it to drive like a tractor. It did. But the simplicity is addictive, and the interior cab is really wonderful. 
 

Took some getting used to. Had to double clutch AND rev match. Short shifting was mandatory- it has some torque at the bottom end, but the top end is non existent. 45 mph is about the max. 
 

2 big questions...

Hill climbing torque...  It had a really hard time getting up small hills. It felt like it was a real hazard- gonna get rear ended. If I could come close to maintaining speed, it would be ok. But dropping from 45 mph to 25 (or lower) on a blind curve is scary. Are there any answers to this?  Do I need a few more driving lessons to learn how to adjust the timing advance on the fly?  Are there rear end options?  Is this car underpowered because of something not working, or is white knuckled push-it-up-the-hill-Flintstone style pretty normal?

2nd question- handling. I don't expect it to be like a MINI. But there was a lot of looseness in the front end- at speed, it tracked all over the place.  Doesn't completely surprise me, but are there improvements?  After market options?  Should a well maintained A be able to putter along in a reasonably straight line, or should it always be expected that they handle like a Little Tikes car doing 50 mph?

Thanks for all the help!

It's been over 60 years since I drove one and 15 since I rode in a completely restored one. Sounds about right.