I (heart) inboard brakes
I (heart) inboard brakes
TurnerX19 said:The Apple Hydraulics folks are old racing friends of mine. Good people.
Good to hear. Lazar was extremely prompt in responding to my enquiry, which was encouraging. They claim one business week for turnaround time, which seems very reasonable. I don't like sending off parts for overhaul usually, but hopefully they'll get back to me by the time I sort out all of the other issues I'm wrangling with here and will bolt on and be perfect. I really want to have the Jag back on the road by fall cruising season, when the weather is prime for open window motoring. I missed spring driving season as I was busy prepping a new Volvo Amazon for LeMons racing.
The answer is obviously to start cutting away parts of the cage, chroming everything, and leave it all exposed!
Challenging brake calipers takes me back to the audi days of UFO rotors in the front of my 200 TQ.
wspohn said:frenchyd said:In reply to wspohn :
I worked my 1958 XK150 and the pistons were all the same as later ones.
I remember doing the brakes on a 1955 D type and it too used the later style pistons. ( but no assurance they hadn't been changed before).
Is it possible that was only a a MG thing? ( no, I've never done the brakes on a Twin Cam )The disc brake calipers on the Jags started out as round puck pads and you had to pull the calipers to replace them.
They went to the more sensible square puck pads which were removable without disturbing the calipers fairly quickly and the only other significant change after that was in the design of the seal retainment. They ditched the plate held to the piston by screws, and went to the swaged back plate on the piston. The Twin Cams never got that - I believe that it came into production part way through the Mk 2 period in the mid 1960s. While I have all the MG parts books I don't have the Jag books so I cant verify a change point. I happened to have spare Jag Mk 2 rear end in my parts pile at the time and pulled the updated pistons out of that.
The hard parts to find were the front brakes stuff for the Mk 9 - they only used them on that model Jag, a Face Vega and maybe a Ferrari. Used an S703 pad rather than the smaller S702 pad of all the other cars.
You are right regarding the pads. The first were round but the cylinders from later cars bolted right on so square pads it was. Ferodo DS11's. I used those and they would easily last me 6-8 races. I bought a case full of them and still had several sets when it went to the next owner.
volvoclearinghouse said:Where we started last night.
And where we punched the time clock to come in.
The half shafts had to come off to remove the rotors, and in doing so I noted the grease fitting on the passenger side inner u joint had broken off. That u joint, unsurprisingly, also had a bit of a stickiness to it. So I'm getting a new u joint there. The other 3 seemed to work fine, with no slop. All the suspension articulations seem to work ok, too. Everything seems to have been well greased, at least.
The hub assemblies had to come off to remove the trailing arms, as I'd noted above. This was the assembly I couldn't figure out how Coventry had put together.
I am keeping track of shims and such, to make sure it all goes back together the same way. Jaguar sure loved their shims. Luckily, as rusty as everything seems, I haven't had to deal with any broken or seized fasteners. They sure loved them some fine threaded bolts, too. Not a coarse thread to be found, anywhere. Even seemingly trivial bracket mounting bolts are fine pitch.
I wanted to replace the dampers, but there's 4 of them, and the cheapest replacements I could find were $130 each. Aaaaand...nope. Not gonna drop 5 bills on rear shocks. I'll figure out how to rebush the mounting points and stick them back in. With the mounting bolts loosened it'll be easier to replace them later, if that ever becomes the long pole in the handling tent.
Could you drill the rubber bushing out a bit and put a sleeve over the bolt to make up the space. Maybe a piece of plastic plumbing? If it's a little too thick, chuck it in your drill press and take a file to it to reduce the exterior diameter down to what you have? A Poor man's lathe if you will.
frenchyd said:You are right regarding the pads. The first were round but the cylinders from later cars bolted right on so square pads it was. Ferodo DS11's. I used those and they would easily last me 6-8 races. I bought a case full of them and still had several sets when it went to the next owner.
I also ran DS11 for years until I ran out (by which time they were no longer available). I switched to Porterfield R4 an discovered that not only did they have equivalent heat tolerance, but they also did not need the same warm up before working properly. I had to drag the brakes with my left foot on pace laps to build up enough heat get much braking with the DS11 from cold and still usually ended up sliding the rear end into the gravel on the first hot lap.
The R4 were actually better than the DS-11!
PS - I used Datsun 2000 calipers halves on the front of my car - you could buy the caliper halves fairly cheaply and they were available for longer than the Dunlop ones were. They were just Dunlops with 'Sumitomo' cast on them. (The rest of the Datsun caliper was different but the halves were identical)
Last night was a good night. The big bushings on the trailing arms were being difficult to press out. I took a sawzall and sliced almost all the way through them axially, in two cuts about 3/4" apart. I then took a chisel and knocked out the resulting square of material. After that the rest of the bushing pushed out easily.
The smaller bushings pressed out fairly easily using "normal methods".
Took a brake cylinder hone and cleaned up the bushing surfaces on the trailing arms. The big bushings on the trialing arms were over 3" in diameter, so the brake hone wouldn't work there. But a 3-1/2" dingleberry cylinder hone worked perfectly.
All surfaces cleaned up beautifully, and coated with antiseize. Now we wait for the new bushings to arrive.
Also cleaned up the u-joint mating surfaces on the cross pieces.
The bushings on the shocks might be able to be fabbed out of some radiator hose material. Not too bad.
Still have to clean up the mating surfaces for everything on the car itself. And clean up some threads.
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully the calipers should arrive at Apple Hydraulics today.
Whew! Sometimes what starts out in our mind as a simple job, turns into an all hands on deck situation. Glad to see you're making progress. I know with me, a simple task turns into every tool I own is out.
wspohn said:frenchyd said:You are right regarding the pads. The first were round but the cylinders from later cars bolted right on so square pads it was. Ferodo DS11's. I used those and they would easily last me 6-8 races. I bought a case full of them and still had several sets when it went to the next owner.I also ran DS11 for years until I ran out (by which time they were no longer available). I switched to Porterfield R4 an discovered that not only did they have equivalent heat tolerance, but they also did not need the same warm up before working properly. I had to drag the brakes with my left foot on pace laps to build up enough heat get much braking with the DS11 from cold and still usually ended up sliding the rear end into the gravel on the first hot lap.
The R4 were actually better than the DS-11!
PS - I used Datsun 2000 calipers halves on the front of my car - you could buy the caliper halves fairly cheaply and they were available for longer than the Dunlop ones were. They were just Dunlops with 'Sumitomo' cast on them. (The rest of the Datsun caliper was different but the halves were identical)
Perhaps if you'd gone up a size in the rear the rears wouldn't have locked up?
I was very lucky the XK 120 master cylinder. I used was a floating tandem. Self biasing.
When eventually forced to switch to twin master cylinders I lost a little of my braking edge.
frenchyd said:Perhaps if you'd gone up a size in the rear the rears wouldn't have locked up?
I was very lucky the XK 120 master cylinder. I used was a floating tandem. Self biasing.
When eventually forced to switch to twin master cylinders I lost a little of my braking edge.
Balance never was a problem. My rear brakes never locked up (except the one time I had a mechanical failure that mechanically locked one). They were in fact quite well balanced. In fact they were fade fee and I was able to outbrake cars decades newer than mine - things like 914s etc.
Box from Moss Motors arrived today! Time to start hittin' it and Gettin' it!
So..... Waiting on the verdict. Hopefully the results are relatively painless.
Got all the bushings pressed into the trailing arms last night. The 3-1/2" diameter ones were a bear to line up properly, but eventually an arrangement of garbage on the bench press presented itself as a workable solution.
Still waiting on the replacement U-joint, from Rock Auto.
I realized this morning as I was laying in bed that I'd forgotten to order the 4 ruber chevron deals that mount the axle cage to the frame of the car. So I grabbed those from Moss this morning. I also ordered a heap of new hardware form McMaster Carr, where it was a fraction of the price of buying the individual fasteners from Moss. There was one particular nut Moss wanted $1.69 EACH for. A bag of 20 from McMaster was like $7. For grade 8, plated, fine pitch nylon locking. Same as what I took off the car. Even with shipping ($10) I came out ahead, and I used the opportunity to "restock" my common hardware library with more fasteners- 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8 stuff I use frequently.
I love McMaster-Carr. It's one of the best websites I've ever used.
Pretty much in a holding pattern now till I get the calipers back, which should be late next week or early the following week. I'll chip away at cleaning and making everything ready for reassembly till then. I do need to get the parking brakes cleaned and reassembled.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I agree, I always look for parts other than Moss whenever I can. Wheel Bearings are bought at a local bearing supply house ( they are very common ). Rock Auto JC Whitney, etc. but Moss has supplied me with a few new parts. Although There is a local Jaguar junkyard. That I get most stuff from. You'd be surprised at how little wear is on most used parts. E Bay can't begin to approach the prices either.
oh, Coventry West is out of business. They used to be a go to for Jaguar stuff too.
In reply to frenchyd :
I haven't had any luck finding any old Jag junkyards. If you have links that's be great.
Moss isn't too bad for most stuff. The Dana u-joint was the same price as on Rock Auto.
I may need some hard parts on the calipers, the little half-moon deals that guide the pads on mine, a couple were cracked/ broken. Not sure if E type calipers will interchange, IIRC it's a 2-1/8" piston caliper.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I e got the ones out of my XJS I didn't look to see what size they are. When I get home I'll check.
I apologize for the lack of pictures in my progress updates. Its difficult to take pictures with greasy hands, and most of the work isn't very photogenic. Last night the new U joint came, so I pressed it in. I was somewhat irritated by the fact that the U joint did not come with a grease fitting. There's a threaded hole where the fitting goes, but they did not include a new fitting in the box. The fitting was broken off the old u joint, so I'll have to find another one.
I received an email from Lazar about my calipers, apparently two of the 8 pad guides were cracked and broken. Luckily, they are the same front and back, and I have a spare set of front Dunlop calipers, so last night I disassembled them and robbed the pad guides. Otherwise the calipers should be overhauled and shipped back late this week. If nothing else is wrong with them. *knock on wood*
At this point I can start putting the rear end back together, and then bolt on the calipers when they arrive.
I will say, whatever Jaguar uses in their steel, no matter how corroded a bolt looks, it always seems to come out, eventually. Almost nothing seems to be gone to the point of breaking off, other than a few tiny cotter pins that I was able to drill out with a 1/16" bit.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
No, No , no. The front and rear should be different sizes. I promise you that is correct.
Off the top of my head they should be 1&5/8th or 1&3/4 cylinders will be smaller in the back or the bias is wrong.
Unless those brake calipers came from a newer car with the big 4 piston calipers up front.
But yeh!! I too love the way Jaguar bolts come out without breaking.
Here are the pictures of the calipers from Lazar:
The pad guides are boxed in red here:
The front and rear pads seem to be the same size, so it makes sense that the pad guides would be the same.
Progress made last night. New rotors bolted on with the U-joints, trailing arms, and lower control arms. The rear suspension is slowly going back together. Still have one parking brake unit to reassemble, and the shocks/ springs to bolt back on. I found a pair of shocks in my stash that I have no idea what they go to. They look new, and the round bushings at the ends look about the same size as the Jag shocks. So I'll steal these bushings for the Jag. I knew there was a reason I held onto those shocks for all these years... 
Thank God I have a lift, or I'd be doing this.
As we ended up last night:
I got the bushings replaced in one shock, with some homemade rubber bushes that seem to fit nice and snug. Have to do the other one of the pair, or the cross bolt for them won't line up!
Also, new brake pads just arrived.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
That's the way I've done 99% of mine. Took me longer on the lift.
In reply to frenchyd :
I can't see how a lift wouldn't make this 400% easier. Trying to get everything aligned on jacks and stands would be exhausting.
Got all the dampers/ springs installed last night. Just need to finish putting together one of the parking brake assemblies (it's been soaking in parts cleaner to derust and free it up for a week) and then I'll be ready to slap calipers on and put it up. This will need to wait till I get the calipers back. It sounds like they should be close to being done. *crosses fingers*
I've got at least 3 other projects lined up behind it that need the lift, so things are getting pretty backed up here. And my Mazda is about 300 miles away from needing an oil change. Just another day at Tunachucker World HQ.
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