For those of us that have had good luck with HP+, I want to hear from those that hate them. What are you using that are better for a drive to and from the track pad that doesn't cost twice as much. Also for a Lemons car that has also been run successfully for many years on them, what is better but not twice the price. I am willing to try something else next time.
Pads are like tires, so many options, they all do the same thing just in a different way.
One of these days I might actually do a deep dive on Hawk HP+ pads. They seem to be incredibly polarizing. There must be some aspect to them where they just fall off a cliff, but I'm not sure what it is: track layout? Driving style? Brake bias? Vehicle weight? Pad size? Maybe they use different compounds for different pad sizes or vehicles?
Personally, they work for me. They'll haul the car down repeatedly from 100+ mph on track without even a hint of fade. Even really good brake fluids start to fade before the pads do for me.
They're a little on the squeaky side for me, but nothing too bad. They are annoyingly dusty. That I'll certainly grant.
IMHO, everything you need to know about HP+ is in this graph:
HP+ is the green line. HPS 5.0 (a real, genuine street pad, no noise, less dust than many OEM pads) has virtually the same temperature range. Back when I used Hawk pads on track, I ran DTC-60s which have a massively larger temperature range.
akylekoz said:For those of us that have had good luck with HP+, I want to hear from those that hate them. What are you using that are better for a drive to and from the track pad that doesn't cost twice as much. Also for a Lemons car that has also been run successfully for many years on them, what is better but not twice the price. I am willing to try something else next time.
Pads are like tires, so many options, they all do the same thing just in a different way.
DTC-60 pads. I'm not trying to save 150 bucks on brake pads as the feeling of no brake pedal makes me nauseous just thinking about it. The temp range for them are double that of HP+ pads. If your specific setup works well with them (due to brake cooling, car weight, track config, etc), go for it. I know I CAN NOT melt DTC60s, one less thing to think about heading into turn 1.
DTC60 pads are still pretty cheap compared to other alternatvies.
Never got the reds to stop squealing on my ACR, track or street, bedded on not, cleaned rotors or not. Stopped well and lasted longer then I thought, never did use enough of them to see the effect on the rotor life though. Are you guys really getting above 800/900f on your rotors and pads in autocross.
I was under the impression that 500-600 was the max with short runs and cool down time.
I ended up sticking some EBC Greenstuffs in because I'm still working on finding enough time to drive the thing enough to bed anything in, and it's a slow, light car so the odds of my actually cooking the pads even if I make it to a track day are small.
All that said, I'm still curious, but I also think that this discussion needs specifics. Maybe if the HP+ got bedded in completely they'd be better. The chart above shows the HP+ to be good to a little higher temperature than the HPS5.0, but I think it's at least as compelling that the HP+ start well above the HPS5.0 at the cold end of the graph.
But at the very least an idea of what kinds of cars folks are running w/regard to power and weight seems vital to this discussion. For my individual case, cold bite, moderate temp bite, consistency are way up the list, and a bit of a margin for the ability to do track days in a light car with modest power is a bonus.
I tried a set of the Hawk HPS pads, not the plus. 2700-2800 lb Civic, street, autocross and track. Not an SI, so small rotors, but does have four wheel discs.
They were okay on the street, terrible for autocross (too grabby, couldn't modulate) seemed to survive a track day at the Firm, which is known for being hard on brakes.
I switched them to Carbo Tech AX6 pads, never going back.
I was cleaning the garage last week, and pulled out those old hawk pads. The steel backing plate had come loose, and the pads had cracks in them. They had managed to stop the car during the track day, but luckily I replaced them soon after. Admittedly, I was asking them to do more than they were supposed to, but I didn't find any characteristics of them that I liked other than low dust and decent street performance.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Full weight 2008 Mustang GT 3600 lb?, hits 116 on the back straight before a third gear 90 onto the front straight at Gingerman track days 20 minute sessions. 1989 Mustang 4cy Lemons car, maybe 2500 lbs No issues at road america, autobahn, gingerman for as many as 24 hours straight. Full weight 1992 Mustang GT, same 3200 lbs, 20 minute sessions also no issues.
2008 14" rotors, Brembo calipers, cooling ducts, I swap these out for street use.
1989 11" rotors, stock calipers, cooling ducts rear drums.
1992 13" rotors, stock calipers, cooling ducts, ran these on the street occasionally, dirty and noisy on the street. Fun when they warm up mid corner on the street and lock a wheel.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:IMHO, everything you need to know about HP+ is in this graph:
HP+ is the green line. HPS 5.0 (a real, genuine street pad, no noise, less dust than many OEM pads) has virtually the same temperature range. Back when I used Hawk pads on track, I ran DTC-60s which have a massively larger temperature range.
That graph is out of date, I'm pretty sure the HP+ has been redone since then. I did like the Hawk Street/Race pad but they have been discontinued for a few years now, they stopped well from cold but as you can see in your graph held on longer than the HP+ at the time. I did not have any issues with that generation HP+ either on my car even on hard on brakes tracks.
This graph is currently on Hawks website, sadly no data below 100 F and above 800 F I presume the HP+ just evaporates lol.
For the street usage portion I found a big improvement with anti-squeel spray to the backing plate.
Looks to me like the HP+ are similar in the old vs new charts.
I like the HP+ for a lighter duty track pad. They aren't too grabby. Eg. I liked them on my old Miata Champcar on a bigger track and street RX-8 on a smaller road course.
akylekoz said:In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Full weight 2008 Mustang GT 3600 lb?, hits 116 on the back straight before a third gear 90 onto the front straight at Gingerman track days 20 minute sessions. 1989 Mustang 4cy Lemons car, maybe 2500 lbs No issues at road america, autobahn, gingerman for as many as 24 hours straight. Full weight 1992 Mustang GT, same 3200 lbs, 20 minute sessions also no issues.
2008 14" rotors, Brembo calipers, cooling ducts, I swap these out for street use.
1989 11" rotors, stock calipers, cooling ducts rear drums.
1992 13" rotors, stock calipers, cooling ducts, ran these on the street occasionally, dirty and noisy on the street. Fun when they warm up mid corner on the street and lock a wheel.
I am shocked you have had success with the hp+ in lemons. We have run them on a Mk4 Jetta TDI and have issues with fade.
Will said:Bringing this back up.
I had great results with HP+ pads in autoX, but that was 10+ years ago. If there are better autoX/aggressive street pads now, what are they?
Carbotech AX6/G-LOC R6 are a good option if you don't mind some noise, EBC Bluestuff NDX could be another good option.
It seems the problem with the HP+ is that there's a pretty narrow temperature/use-case window where it makes any sense. On the street they're a huge PITA like a race pad and beyond autocross heat they get melty like an ordinary street pad.
I can't stand the HP+ pads. I can see how maybe they work on a miata, but on a heavier, more powerful car, with an experienced driver? They BLOW. On the street they're loud and dusty, on the track they melt. There isn't a magic bullet, track pads for the track, street pads for the street
The graphs being used to support the "HP+ sucks" argument seem to show pretty amazing initial bite. If there's a pad that offers that without the dust/noise, I guess that's what I'm after for street use.
docwyte said:I can't stand the HP+ pads. I can see how maybe they work on a miata, but on a heavier, more powerful car, with an experienced driver? They BLOW. On the street they're loud and dusty, on the track they melt. There isn't a magic bullet, track pads for the track, street pads for the street
Wait, you're dismissing a pad on GRM because they might only work on something like a Miata? 
I mean, I get the noisy/dusty thing and that's why I posted the original question. However, a lot of what you seem to say is they don't work for you and your car, but may be dandy in other applications.
In reply to docwyte :
This is my experience as well. I ran them on an STi and a Z06 and disliked them.
Jesse Ransom said:Wait, you're dismissing a pad on GRM because they might only work on something like a Miata?
They didn't work on my Miata. Granted, mine isn't exactly stock, but... :)
The problem with the HP+ is that they are basically all downsides. Lots of dust, hard on rotors, noisy like any dedicated track pad, but they don't offer the high temperature window to balance it out. There's nothing it does that you can't do better with a different pad that has fewer compromises.
For the MGB I'd have gone to Porterfield R4-S pads as a good intermediate pad without a squeal problem. I use them on a modern BMW sports and no squeal. I also use EBC Red Stuff on another moder sprts car and great braking and no squeal. Don't know if they come in MGB spec.
Will said:The graphs being used to support the "HP+ sucks" argument seem to show pretty amazing initial bite. If there's a pad that offers that without the dust/noise, I guess that's what I'm after for street use.
Just wait until you see the coefficient of friction on a regular semi metallic street pad <100F. It will BLOW YOUR MIND.
In reply to wspohn :
They do, and I may end up trying them. After all, that's actually what the shoes are at the rear...
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
They don't work on most cars and for most drivers. That's why I'm dismissing them.
Racebrick said:akylekoz said:In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Full weight 2008 Mustang GT 3600 lb?, hits 116 on the back straight before a third gear 90 onto the front straight at Gingerman track days 20 minute sessions. 1989 Mustang 4cy Lemons car, maybe 2500 lbs No issues at road america, autobahn, gingerman for as many as 24 hours straight. Full weight 1992 Mustang GT, same 3200 lbs, 20 minute sessions also no issues.
2008 14" rotors, Brembo calipers, cooling ducts, I swap these out for street use.
1989 11" rotors, stock calipers, cooling ducts rear drums.
1992 13" rotors, stock calipers, cooling ducts, ran these on the street occasionally, dirty and noisy on the street. Fun when they warm up mid corner on the street and lock a wheel.
I am shocked you have had success with the hp+ in lemons. We have run them on a Mk4 Jetta TDI and have issues with fade.
We ran them in lemons. The performance was acceptable (but we were on ~400TW all seasons), but longevity was bad. I think we went through our fronts within the first 6 hours.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
EBC Redstuff is a nice street pad, long-wearing and more capable than most, but if you want an autocross pad that's more aggressive than an ordinary street pad they may be too mild for that. The positive is that you won't have to worry about friction ramping up with heat during the run.
3570 lb +/- 05 Mustang
11" Rotors, Stock Calipers
Needed heat to work
Did not stop the Car at 65 MPM when a Tesla Lifted and their brake lights did not lite up!
Replacing complete brake system.
YRMV fWIW
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