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cxhb
cxhb New Reader
9/1/08 9:34 p.m.

a friend of mine has blown the diff out twice, but he was launching on slicks at about 7-8grand i think, from what ive driven they handle like a scalpel, and i like it. if i wasnt in college, i would probably own one, its the only car ive driven and felt like i didnt want to change much, except for the width of the front wheels. they understeer at the limit.

another key note- for a cheaper (not easier but cheaper) little added thrill, there is a final drive you can buy from a hyundai (i have seen it mounted ill get back to you on further details i.e. model and year to buy i forgot) that makes acceleration even more thrilling till 9k....

vtack yo

Keith
Keith SuperDork
9/2/08 12:49 a.m.

Two things about the S2000 that I wish the Miata had - room for huge rubber and the ability to shed a significant amount of weight. They're heavier than a Miata when stock, but you can strip them down to similar levels because the S2000 seems to have heavier interior parts. In other words, they're not made of cardboard :)

I've got a lot of respect for them, although my limited experience behind the wheel makes me think they're like the FD RX-7 - a great track car, not a great street toy.

DrBoost
DrBoost Reader
9/2/08 7:37 a.m.

I have a question for those with some significant experience in an S2000. Back when they were newish, first few years I say quite a few of them at auto-X events. It seems they were spinning out with alarming regularity. Here's my hypothesis (but remember, I've never driven one, it's just a hypothesis): Since they lack torque you have to keep the revs up pretty high to have much usable power (this seems to have been substantiated in this thread). Keeping revs up means higher ground speed since at an autoX you really only have 2 gears to choose from. Trying to stay in VTEC keeps you at 9 or 9.5/10ths of the handling limit and thus unless you are a very good driver you are closer to the limit of adhesion and are prone to spinning out. Yes I know cars will spin out at an autoX but I never saw any other model spin out as much as the 2000.

So, am I totally wrong?

amaff
amaff Reader
9/2/08 8:31 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: So, am I totally wrong?

I'd say that's pretty accurate. They seem to be a bit twitchy at the very limit on a tight autox course, partially because to get the most out of them, you're crazy high in the RPM band. Hell, my miata's like that too...

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
9/2/08 8:37 a.m.

They make a nice locost: (OK, not a locost, but 7-ish anyway.)

carguy123
carguy123 HalfDork
9/2/08 8:52 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: I have a question for those with some significant experience in an S2000. Back when they were newish, first few years I say quite a few of them at auto-X events. It seems they were spinning out with alarming regularity. Here's my hypothesis (but remember, I've never driven one, it's just a hypothesis): Since they lack torque you have to keep the revs up pretty high to have much usable power (this seems to have been substantiated in this thread). Keeping revs up means higher ground speed since at an autoX you really only have 2 gears to choose from. Trying to stay in VTEC keeps you at 9 or 9.5/10ths of the handling limit and thus unless you are a very good driver you are closer to the limit of adhesion and are prone to spinning out. Yes I know cars will spin out at an autoX but I never saw any other model spin out as much as the 2000. So, am I totally wrong?

Totally wrong.

The very first year's suspension was set up to be quite twitchy they have since softened up the rear end. People who came from RWD cars such as the RX7, Miata, etc. didn't have nearly as much issue with it as did those who came from FWD cars. Most people who autocrossed them simply stiffened the front bar. As with any car you will need to set alignment, suspension, tires up to fit your own personal style of driving. The neat thing about this car is that you can! Methinks you were just staring at the S2000 cause it looks so good and therefore noticed their spins more than some other models. :)

And there is no TRYING to stay in VTEC, it just does if you use the gearbox properly. Driving it is no different than a car with a 6k red line.

Oh, and that's not a pic of a Locost, that's a picture of an Ultralite. It's definitely not Locost but it definitely runs like a scalded ape. I've played with quite a number of them.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
9/2/08 9:02 a.m.

Yeah, I know it's an Ultralite. It was at the KC show Sunday, along with 13 other 7s, Locosts, Cats and Kits, including a Cat with a 300HP turbo Miata motor (FM). I have pics at: http://www.drhess.net/KC_2008

There are 3 thumbnails. I tried to use photobucket, but couldn't get it to bulk upload, gave up and just stuck them in a directory on my site. Anyway, look for the yellow 7 and that's the Ultralite.

confuZion3
confuZion3 HalfDork
9/2/08 9:17 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: The only thing I know about the S2000's is that they have nearly the same amount of torque as a #2 pencil rolling across a level desk.

This made me laugh.

amaff
amaff Reader
9/2/08 10:53 a.m.

man, I bet an S2k Ultralite would be a beast

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT New Reader
9/2/08 10:58 a.m.

[from the archives at http://archive.grassrootsmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=27160]

My experience with S2000s is all on track, not autocross. I'm not an S2000 expert but I have first-hand, left seat experience at the limit. I like S2000s and think they are fantastic track cars. I'm not bashing.

The early cars had an issue with rear toe control. Under deflection (hard cornering) the outside rear wheel would develop dynamic toe out. What this means is that as you are, for example, turning left, the right rear wheel, as it becomes fully loaded, starts to turn RIGHT and you get a possible oversteer situation.

Note I said a POSSIBLE oversteer situation. The car doesn't just spin itself and it's not an uncontrollable thing. However, and to me this is key, what you have is a car that does not behave in a linear fashion. What do I mean? As you add steering, and cornering forces build, the car rotates at a certain rate. However, as you reach that certain point on the suspension travel, increased steering causes rotation to increase AT AN INCREASING RATE. With the S2000 rear toe control problem you get a very spooky feeling as you approach the limits such that the car starts to over-rotate and you think the rear end is losing traction but it is in fact the change in toe increasing the rotation. Both the owner and I found it very spooky (each drove and reported the same thing, and we're both experienced drivers). This is the same issue found on first generation RX-7s, which also have a reputation for snap oversteer (and I have extensively driven those on-track, as well). To drive a car at the limit it needs to be predictable, and linear is predictable and non-linear is less predictable.

Since this experience was at high speed on track, would this be an issue autocrossing? I say yes, for any serious driving. When autocrossing you need to be able to very quickly, accurately and consistently push the car right to the limit of rotation and an unpredictable (non-linear) response will hinder that.

OK, that's the issue. The good news is that there is a simple fix out there. It's a rear toe control kit and, if I recall correctly from my friend, it sells for less than $250 and is an easy install. The same car in the same turn was transformed from a white-knuckle "I don't dare go 10/10ths" to "Yeah baby yeah baby push it!"

I respect Honda's engineers a lot and I theorize the S2000 was their baby, so I'll confess I'm a little shocked Honda let this slip by.

[edit] I've since driven other early s2000s on other tracks and confirmed the toe control issue. The model year 2000 I just drove was even worse than I remember, but then the rear suspension bushings are now eight years old and probably allowing even more toe change.

I understand the toe-control issue was present from the car's inception. I think it was solved by the factory when they revised the rear suspension, which I think was in 2002. I'm not a S2000 timeline expert so please research further. I can't tell you the manufacturer of my friend's kit, but I'm guessing you'll find several solutions online.

Now if only there were a simple, cheap, easy-to-install solution for the poor steering feel...

Good luck!

914Driver
914Driver HalfDork
9/2/08 11:21 a.m.
So tell me what you know about Honda S 2000.

I know my kid's GTi spanked one three lights in a row through Atlanta. Never had a chance once the turbo comes on.

aircooled
aircooled Dork
9/2/08 11:39 a.m.

I would just like to say, I very much appreciate the lack of use of the phrase "learn me" in the title... that is all.

amaff
amaff Reader
9/2/08 12:11 p.m.
aircooled wrote: I would just like to say, I very much appreciate the lack of use of the phrase "learn me" in the title... that is all.

HAHA I'll admit as I was typing it up, I had it up there, then remembered the usual griping so I figured I'd work around it ;)

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH Dork
9/2/08 12:19 p.m.

S2000s are the Miatas of the future!

GregTivo
GregTivo Reader
9/2/08 3:32 p.m.
GameboyRMH wrote: S2000s are the Miatas of the future!

Mazda jumped the shark with the NC?

racerdave600
racerdave600 Reader
9/2/08 6:38 p.m.

It's a problem not unlike the MR2 Turbo or NSX for that matter. They are twitchy at the limit, and not at all like a Miata in terms on drivability ease, for the early S2000 I mean. However, once you get used to it to some degree, it can allow you to rotate the car faster with the throttle, but it reacts much the same way a mid-engine car can react to imputs. I never found it to be a problem, but it is sensitive and not for the novice.

carguy123
carguy123 HalfDork
9/2/08 7:13 p.m.
GregTivo wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote: S2000s are the Miatas of the future!
Mazda jumped the shark with the NC?

It did for me.

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