So what's the new special category for next year?

I do like an AM class. I did not get to post yesterday as I was driving all day but I did a lot of thinking. Here are the main arguments in my mind for the $80 tire class (you have to run tires that MSRP on tirerack or something for less than $80). I'm not set on tirerack as the arbiter or $80 as the actual limit but you get the idea. Here is why the tire class is great:

1. Tires are the great equalizer. Always have been, always will be.
2. Money is the next great equalizer. THAT is why we like the challenge. Focus is on VALUE (performance/dollar), not just performance.
3. Tire class doesn't have to be a "one-year" build. Builds that are currently in progress can join a tire class easily. They cannot join an AM class if they aren't already an AM car. I would hope this means we can get a few of the folks with hopefuls that didn't quite make it to come join the fun next year.
4. When my $2000 race car sports $1500 worth of Hoosier A7 that isn't included in the $2000, that can be quickly interpreted by outsiders as a $3500 race car, which can quickly lead to just assuming the rest is BS too.
5. Don't assume that there aren't fast $80 tires on tire rack - the general tire challenge always posted AX times on general tires (all seasons, basically) that were very competitive with the challenge pack on the same course. All seasons are actually probably better than A7s on the drag strip.
6. A tire class makes aristocrat vs wagon vs minivan battles possible.

Here's my issue with an $80 tire class:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hoo-22370r60/overview/

$56 for an 8" wide Hoosier, which you'll then need to build a tube-framed Subaru Microvan to fit. 

Meanwhile if we go 200-treadwear, you can be competitive on a $116 Falken:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Falken&tireModel=Azenis+RT615K%2B&partnum=05WR5RT615KPXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

Tom Suddard said:

Here's my issue with an $80 tire class:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hoo-22370r60/overview/

$56 for an 8" wide Hoosier, which you'll then need to build a tube-framed Subaru Microvan to fit. 

I don't see those on TireRack.  This is why you pick a site that only has car stuff.

Tom Suddard said:

What about this:

American Muscle

Must be an originally-rear-wheel-drive vehicle from an American motor vehicle company. Minimum competition weight 3100 pounds with driver. 

i'm feeling that except for the minimum weight.   i'd have to add 300 lbs to a *stock* corvair.   

In reply to AngryCorvair :

Yeah, 300lbs of nitrous and turbos!

I don't like the minimum weight because not everyone has access to scales.  How about must have full interior?  Substitutions of seats/carpets/door cards/etc are allowed but no gutting.

Tom Suddard said:

Meanwhile if we go 200-treadwear, you can be competitive on a $116 Falken:

 

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Falken&tireModel=Azenis+RT615K%2B&partnum=05WR5RT615KPXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

 

if you build for a 205/50-15.

i've already got an assortment of big A6/A7's, 275/40-17, 295/35-17, and 315/35-17, and am tentatively planning to build my car around the 275 front and 315 rear.   the Falkens only go up to 275/40, and at that size they're $201 apiece.

would the 200TW tire apply to *all* Challenge cars, or only the AM cars?

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

nope, my doors aren't gutted.   hey, don't look behind my door cards.   there's literally nothing in there for you to see.

The $80 is easily solved with $80 non sale price and 400TW minimum as stated on Tire Rack. Or whatever TW you want, but 400 takes out the vast majority of "cheater" tires and still provides enough of an ample selection that we're not all focusing on a single weirdly priced tire. 

Edit: and I don't think it should be a special class next year, just a sub category amongst competitors. I actually have a couple of ideas about building community within the "low prep" cars that show up that comes from my days in HS autocross. The slow end of the field can be just as fun as the fast end if the community around them is strong. 

I ran Datsaniti on $54 tires and got 14th place

dean1484 said:

Bike motor class?

This would be cool. I have an idea for a bike engine'd car that would be quite fun. This would likely expedite the creation of it...

I KNOW for a fact,  it's hard to get a say G- body below 3100 pounds you may get another 50-100 out but it would be hard. 

  with the cover of Small bore cars on GRM may be we should uphold a  small bore/  class  and an open but C A M Class, limit  small to 2.0-2.5 L max.

and     how come no one uses General Tires aka THE Sponsor,  seems it would be a requirement,  have them bring us a truck load and mount them too   AT    a truck load price. 25-30 bucks apiece  or  free  then turn them in afterward.

I guess the open /cam cars would still want purple stuff,   for tires.

Maybe it is worth being specific about the $80 idea. Here are the specifics:

1. You must be able to prove the tire is DOT approved and has a full retail price (not sale price) of less than $80 on tirerack.com (USA version, not tirerack .cz or nigeria - if those exist). No discounts or coupons can be used to clear the $80 bar.

You DON'T have to pay $80 per tire. You could still buy used. You can mix-match tire sizes and even brands. You can still get the coupon or discount so you personally pay less than $80. I could go either way about also including a TW rating or not, but if you choose the price right the TW thing isn't necessary.

My intent was to say what tires would I buy for a summer driver (i'm value oriented about my street cars too). I'd rather this not be a 'crappy tire' class, so I'm great if someone can find something mostly sporty for $79.95. Actually, that is EXACTLY what I want to see. What are the actually fast cheap tires out there? Firehawk 500s? Something from some obscure brand? kuhmo kh16s?

CAM requires 200 Treadwear tires not Hoosiers. 

Tommy and David mentioned having more classes for people to compete in.  How about CAM or whatever subclass we decide on and one of the other options discussed like the tire class or the mostly stock car driven to the track etc...

maschinenbau said:

I ran Datsaniti on $54 tires and got 14th place

See, THIS is EXACTLY what I am interested in. That is bitchin - good work. My 15th place Saab was running $1200 tires (that admittedly were 4+ years old).

Another thing worth mentioning is that there are a couple of ways to look at special classes- generally, they do one of the following: either produce really interesting cars (Datsaniti, APV GXP), or give people a new place to compete (stock wagons, trucks, whatever).  Sometimes both.  A CAM class is very much going to do the first, but may be even more daunting for new competitiors.  A spec cheap tire, which is usable later and won't hurt your car/make the handling unworkable on stock suspension, allows people who like the challenge but don't feel they can enter to just use the cheap tires on their cheap daily driver and go race.  No tuning, no wondering if your 200TW tires can get you to work in the rain for a year, no $1500 R comps... I could have entered a spec tire class in college with my only car and no additional money, just a tire rack screenshot showing that my Tiger Paw radials were legal.  To me, that's the point.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

exactly! An AM class means existing challengers go buy AM cars next week. A cheap tire class hopefully means existing challengers go buy cheap tires AND we get some new fresh teams to show up and run.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

I've been discussing this off the board with a few people and the question is, does a dozen "low prep" cars make the Challenge better for the magazine? I would love to enter a car next year but building specifically for the Challenge probably isn't in the cards unless my life gets simple enough that I get bored. What I can do is what I do over and over because it entertains me, which is to get a $1000 car, clean, fix, make better, put some vinyl on, and enter the Challenge. Afterwords it's a car that I can sell to normal people to drive to work/school, but does that make the event better? 

I talked to almost all of the regular car teams this year and my biggest regret is that they don't have some sort of informal competition/community among themselves. My history of racing HS autocross says that it kind of sucks unless there are 3-6 other people to paddock with and grid next to and high five when any of you do well. I want to organize and make stickers and t-shirts and group together those people that have normal cars on normal tires and still come out and play, but I'm not sure that putting all of that together makes the event better from an editorial standpoint. 

Most of the original aristocrats (all maybe?) were 'low prep' cars. One beautifully-detailed stock Q45, 3 cars with basically just stripped interiors, I think one was actually motor swapped with a slightly larger motor from a later car (the maxima was a 3.4 to a 3.5 or something).

I don't know the answer to your question, but the original side-class gave us low prep folks a place to compete separately.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

 does a dozen "low prep" cars make the Challenge better for the magazine?

No.  But a dozen new competitors who get their first taste of competition and finally start to build that crazy thing they're been dreaming of?  That makes it better for the magazine- it just takes a few years.

I absolutely agree about making it a group and a class, and I know there will be people who only ever compete there and that doesn't necessarily make great content (although I bet their interactions and friendly rivalries will)- but to compare to your autocross example, I think there are a lot of guys in HS who go build an SM or XP car later too, but would never have even entered their first event if they didn't have HS to play in first.

Tom Suddard said:

What about this:

American Muscle

Must be an originally-rear-wheel-drive vehicle from an American motor vehicle company. Minimum competition weight 3100 pounds with driver. 

Skip the weight requirement and I like it!!!

wheels777 said:

Tom Suddard said:

What about this:

American Muscle

Must be an originally-rear-wheel-drive vehicle from an American motor vehicle company. Minimum competition weight 3100 pounds with driver. 

Skip the weight requirement and I like it!!!

Sounds like you need to find a really big person to add to the "team" for that qualification. How much lead can you walk around with in your pockets...

Robbie said:

I do like an AM class. I did not get to post yesterday as I was driving all day but I did a lot of thinking. Here are the main arguments in my mind for the $80 tire class (you have to run tires that MSRP on tirerack or something for less than $80). I'm not set on tirerack as the arbiter or $80 as the actual limit but you get the idea. Here is why the tire class is great:

1. Tires are the great equalizer. Always have been, always will be.
2. Money is the next great equalizer. THAT is why we like the challenge. Focus is on VALUE (performance/dollar), not just performance.
3. Tire class doesn't have to be a "one-year" build. Builds that are currently in progress can join a tire class easily. They cannot join an AM class if they aren't already an AM car. I would hope this means we can get a few of the folks with hopefuls that didn't quite make it to come join the fun next year.
4. When my $2000 race car sports $1500 worth of Hoosier A7 that isn't included in the $2000, that can be quickly interpreted by outsiders as a $3500 race car, which can quickly lead to just assuming the rest is BS too.
5. Don't assume that there aren't fast $80 tires on tire rack - the general tire challenge always posted AX times on general tires (all seasons, basically) that were very competitive with the challenge pack on the same course. All seasons are actually probably better than A7s on the drag strip.
6. A tire class makes aristocrat vs wagon vs minivan battles possible.

Could always include the cost of the tires in the overall budget.  Like we used to do. 

Which can be also gamed, if you know autocrossers who use their tires once, and then swap them.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

 does a dozen "low prep" cars make the Challenge better for the magazine?

No.  But a dozen new competitors who get their first taste of competition and finally start to build that crazy thing they're been dreaming of?  That makes it better for the magazine- it just takes a few years.

I absolutely agree about making it a group and a class, and I know there will be people who only ever compete there and that doesn't necessarily make great content (although I bet their interactions and friendly rivalries will)- but to compare to your autocross example, I think there are a lot of guys in HS who go build an SM or XP car later too, but would never have even entered their first event if they didn't have HS to play in first.

IMHO, if you change "low prep" to "common prep to popular autocross class, then you have something really big.

CAM is a great example- if you wanted to get involved, but had little cash- here' the way to do it.  You can choose ANY popular class and do that.  Just pick one.  

I like the simplicity of CAM. I think like pimpm3 said it addresses a style of vehicle and the tire concerns.