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Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
12/30/24 5:27 p.m.

Hey everyone. So my parents recently purchased a new Tesla Model Y, and I have to say, I'm pleasantly surprised with it as someone who is a gearhead and was always suspicious of EVs. This recent acquisition by them got me thinking about my own daily driver. I am still dailying a 2006 Honda Accord with the K24 engine and 5 speed manual. It has around 205k miles on it now, and the fuel economy isn't bad, but isn't exactly great by modern standards.

So, queue my window shopping of other vehicles. I first started thinking of maybe a Bolt EV, but the range on those are kind of low for my use case and it would give me some range anxiety. Teslas and Hyundai Ioniqs are too expensive for me.

So, I started looking at the 3rd gen Honda Insight. Instantly fell in love with the exterior and interior styling of the car. I do not like the design of the priuses, except for the most recent gen, but again, too expensive for me.

From your experiences here, are hybrids still worth it in this day and age? Are they a good option for someone who tends to keep their daily for years? I've had my 7th gen Accord for coming up on 10 years now so I tend to keep my daily drivers for a hot minute.

The 3rd gen Insight seems to still be new enough that it would last me some time, and it may still have a couple more years of depreciation under its belt for me to stack some money and then purchase. That being said, anyone here with a 3rd gen Honda Insight have any....insight....into the vehicle?

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
12/30/24 6:44 p.m.

Strangely, I've recently done the math on this using the Lexus NX platform as a basis and the answer is....maybe. 

 

My query was the nx300 vs the 300h. The 300 gets 28mph highway vs the h getting 33. That's 6mph difference. The round trip of the primary driver is a grand total of 350 miles a week. That's 12.5 gal of fuel in the 300 and 10.6 in the h. A difference of less than $6 a week at $3 a gallon. 

 

The buy in on a BASE 300 non hybrid seems to be a few thousand dollars cheaper than the hybrid, with a 2020ish hybrid running right around 27k or so with 60k on it. Base with comparable miles non hybrid is closer to 22-23, or I can go newer base, less miles, or up to the f-sport for comparable money, meaning it gets either a newer, LESS used car, or way more SAME used car for the price of a couple Starbucks runs in gas. 

 

Even if I go to the NEWEST Prius in that range (which seems to be about a 22...so not even really newer than the truck let) it's 53mpg highway which is my primary use. That's 6.6 gal of gas, or we'll call it double the non hybrid Lexus. For even EASIER numbers we'll round up even further and call it $20 a week. That's $80 a month saved to either drive a really sweet Lexus.....or a Prius. 

 

Now I'm not dissuading anyone from buying a hybrid. They're neat. You just have to decide where your priorities are. You want comfy guts and a bumping stereo, or you wanna mileage as much as humanly possible? Truth be told an Escalade can be more efficient than a Prius if the use case is there. 

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
12/30/24 6:47 p.m.
Mndsm said:

Strangely, I've recently done the math on this using the Lexus NX platform as a basis and the answer is....maybe. 

 

My query was the nx300 vs the 300h. The 300 gets 28mph highway vs the h getting 33. That's 6mph difference. The round trip of the primary driver is a grand total of 350 miles a week. That's 12.5 gal of fuel in the 300 and 10.6 in the h. A difference of less than $6 a week at $3 a gallon. 

 

The buy in on a BASE 300 non hybrid seems to be a few thousand dollars cheaper than the hybrid, with a 2020ish hybrid running right around 27k or so with 60k on it. Base with comparable miles non hybrid is closer to 22-23, or I can go newer base, less miles, or up to the f-sport for comparable money, meaning it gets either a newer, LESS used car, or way more SAME used car for the price of a couple Starbucks runs in gas. 

 

Even if I go to the NEWEST Prius in that range (which seems to be about a 22...so not even really newer than the truck let) it's 53mpg highway which is my primary use. That's 6.6 gal of gas, or we'll call it double the non hybrid Lexus. For even EASIER numbers we'll round up even further and call it $20 a week. That's $80 a month saved to either drive a really sweet Lexus.....or a Prius. 

 

Now I'm not dissuading anyone from buying a hybrid. They're neat. You just have to decide where your priorities are. You want comfy guts and a bumping stereo, or you wanna mileage as much as humanly possible? Truth be told an Escalade can be more efficient than a Prius if the use case is there. 

This is very interesting, thank you! I have to definitely do some actual calculations for my use as I'm not 100% sure what the actual mileage of my 7th gen Accord is, but I do know its not anything terrible. That leads me to think if it would be worth the buy in price for an Insight, unless I decide I just want something more modern. In that case I guess there are cheaper options out there.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
12/30/24 8:59 p.m.

www.fueleconomy.gov has a good comparison tool.  You can get the mpg rating of any car in any configuration from 1985 to present and compare.  You can then personalize settings like miles driven per year or "if gas was $6 per gallon", etc.

TravisTheHuman
TravisTheHuman MegaDork
12/30/24 9:05 p.m.

The major downside to the Insight is that the Prius exists.  I dont know if Honda ironed out the kinks in the 3g, but in previous gens, the Toyota hybrid system is much preferred.

As far as whether or not hybrids are worth it - whats your city/hwy mix.  If you compare pure hwy numbers as Mndsm did above, they are rarely worth it.  If you drive more urban environments the delta is a lot more.

I must say, the nx300h seems pretty disappointing from a specs standpoint.  For comparison a 2022 Camry is rated at 28/39 and the hybrid jumps to 51/53.  Thats >50% better economy combined.



 

TravisTheHuman
TravisTheHuman MegaDork
12/30/24 9:07 p.m.
Mndsm said:

You want comfy guts and a bumping stereo, or you wanna mileage as much as humanly possible? 

The current gen Camry hybrid gets you pretty close to both of these.  I mean I'm not a luxury car nut so maybe its no Lexus, but its quiet, tons of features, quicker than it should be, and still >50mpg.  If I was looking for a commuting sedan it would be high up on my list.

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
12/30/24 9:25 p.m.

Thanks for the input, I'm going to play around with fueleconomy.gov. As for hwy/city mix, most of my actual daily commute miles are done hwy. I do of course drive around town, but I put far more miles on the highway due to commuting to work as opposed to popping down to Home Depot, Autozone, etc. In that case it seems hybrid may play less of an actual savings in gas cost?

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
12/30/24 10:07 p.m.

In reply to TravisTheHuman :

Forgot to mention, on the point of the Prius vs 3g Insight, I *think* the issues were kinked out, as from an online search it seems to be preferable to the 2nd gen. I'm not an expert though. I will say, although the Prius is the better hybrid overall, I just can't get past the interior and exterior looks of the gens that I can actually afford. if I could, I would 100% buy a new Prius but I can't unfortunately.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
12/30/24 10:38 p.m.

In reply to Japanspec :

I'm more than a little bit of a Gen2 Prius fanboy.  Here is the link to my Gen2 Prius Buyers Guide

They are a great choice for a GRMer willing to DIY his own repair.  The most amazing thing about the Gen2 Prius is just how deep the DIY internet support is.  Honda Hybrids never reached the same level of internet support to their vehicles. The Honda also never sold the shear volume of hybrids.  Therefore, each Honda Insight generation is its own small run, specialty vehicle with limited parts availability.  

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/honda-insight-sales-figures/

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/honda-insight-sales-figures/

 

EDIT:  I had to look up Insight Wiki and I see that Insight Gen3 is 2018.  By that time, the Insight was the precursor of all Honda Models offering a hybrid.  I would say that by then, Honda was much more confident in hybrids.  Like, full brand adoption of hybrid type confidence.  

 

You mention the Chevy Bolt.  How do you feel about the Honda Clarity?  Like Bolt, a Plug-in Hybrid.  All electric for a little while and then ICE engine for the miles after that?  "Futuristic" looks.  But again a very limited run model.  

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
12/30/24 10:43 p.m.
TravisTheHuman said:
Mndsm said:

You want comfy guts and a bumping stereo, or you wanna mileage as much as humanly possible? 

The current gen Camry hybrid gets you pretty close to both of these.  I mean I'm not a luxury car nut so maybe its no Lexus, but its quiet, tons of features, quicker than it should be, and still >50mpg.  If I was looking for a commuting sedan it would be high up on my list.

Yeah, the Camry is up there, but the Lexus also hits a delta of they're in that "we're taking the max depreciation hit right about now" and Lexus occupies this weird space in my area where they don't seem to hold value the same way Toyota does despite being the exact same car with squishier insides. As an example, the NX and the RAV are effectively the same vehicle- they're the same platform iirc or very close. A rav hybrid with the same miles and less equipment would cost the same as a comp Lexus. It's bizarre. 

 

There's also the ever important swmbo sludge factor. She gets what she wants. We've looked at everything from a Prius to a Subaru Impreza hybrid and we keep coming back to the Lexus. It comes in orange. 

TravisTheHuman
TravisTheHuman MegaDork
12/30/24 11:06 p.m.

If the NX and the RAV4 are the same basic thing why does the RAV4 get so much better gas mileage?  Weird.

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
12/31/24 5:59 a.m.
TravisTheHuman said:

If the NX and the RAV4 are the same basic thing why does the RAV4 get so much better gas mileage?  Weird.

Maybe previous Rav4 hybrids with FWD got better fuel economy, but the current Rav 4 hybrid and the Lexus 350h are both only available with AWD. It's odd that the Lexus shows Premium fuel, while the Rav 4 shows regular unleaded though. Not sure if that's real or a bug with the site.

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
12/31/24 6:13 a.m.

Toyota has put the Prius' hybrid powertrain into about everything they sell at this point that's not Body on Frame. If the only reason you're not into a Prius is the exterior styling, you can get the same efficiency and reliability benefits in other models. Also shouldn't overlook Ford hybrids. They use a nearly identical hybrid system as Toyota (essentially co-developed between the two companies). They're often a bit less expensive to buy due to skipping the Toyota tax.

 

The Ford shown below is basically identical to a 2013 model while the Toyota and Honda were both updated, so it doesn't have the same level of fuel efficiency, but they were pretty comparable to the contemporaries when new and are still pretty decent for a midsize sedan

 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
12/31/24 6:30 a.m.
John Welsh said:

You mention the Chevy Bolt.  How do you feel about the Honda Clarity?  Like Bolt, a Plug-in Hybrid.  All electric for a little while and then ICE engine for the miles after that?  "Futuristic" looks.  But again a very limited run model.  

Chevy Bolt is a BEV, I think you might be thinking of the Chevy Volt.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
12/31/24 7:52 a.m.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

Correct. I did intend V...Volt not B...Bolt

 

As for Ford and Hybrid look into the Lincoln MKZ, the tarted up Fusion.  Lincoln sold many of these as a 2.0L Hybrid.  A rare combination of lux and fuel economy (a not common combination in the marketplace.)

Another personal favorite is the Lexus HS250h sedan.  Only a 3 year run but the Camry Hybrid system in a smaller chassis generally Prius sized but a tidy looking sedan.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_HS

TravisTheHuman
TravisTheHuman MegaDork
12/31/24 9:33 a.m.
STM317 said:
TravisTheHuman said:

If the NX and the RAV4 are the same basic thing why does the RAV4 get so much better gas mileage?  Weird.

<evidence that I'm an idiot>

Oops, got too trusting of google results.  And so did Mndsm?

confuZion3
confuZion3 UltraDork
12/31/24 9:40 a.m.

Are hybrids worth it? Absolutely! I had a first generation Volt, and I loved it. It drove great, looked kind of cool (in a dorky way), and was very comfortable (unlike the Bolt with its horrible seats). If you don't drive a lot, you can drive everywhere in EV mode, and as long as the battery is still alive in it, you should have a reliable car. The batteries in that car, surprisingly, seem to be holding up to the mileage and years, too--I think GM put limits on the actual battery capacity of 30-80% (your 0 is actually 30%, and a full charge is actually only 80%). If you get a 2012 (the second year they made them), you'd get a new mode that the first year didn't have called "hold" (I think). You'd activate it when you popped onto the highway for the part of your commute that would be efficiently done in gas mode, and it would keep the battery for the in-town parts.

Plus, it was kind of fun on the track. wink https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YXupOO-wAM&t=11s

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
12/31/24 9:47 a.m.

We went through this same thing when we bought the wife's Seltos. Looked at the Niro and Sportage hybrids. The extra $13-20k in initial price mixed with her usage didn't mix well. She's getting 35mpg mostly highway weekly in the conventional Seltos compared to 40-50 in the other two. At 40 miles a day, that's 200 miles a week. That's less than 2 gallons a week, or 104 gallons a year. Even at $4/gal that is 40 years to pay back that initial investment. 

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
12/31/24 10:08 a.m.
Mndsm said:That's $80 a month saved to either drive a really sweet Lexus.....or a Prius. 

 

To build on that, it also depends on what you would do with that $80/wk. I'm a saver, and tend to invest any money that I don't spend, versus blowing it on lattes. As a result, $80/mo sounds like a ton of money to me and would be a strong motivator. Say either car lasts you 10 years, and you save that $80/mo into an index fund returning 10%/year (average for S&P500 or total market index funds), you'd have nearly $11,000 after 10 years in that account. Repeat that savings on the next car and you'd have nearly $39,000 in 20 years. So, is driving a Lexus for 20 years versus a Prius worth $39,000 to you? A few decisions like this are how some people end up with nothing in savings while others end up with millions come retirement.

 

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
12/31/24 10:14 a.m.
TravisTheHuman said:

If the NX and the RAV4 are the same basic thing why does the RAV4 get so much better gas mileage?  Weird.

same reason the es and the Camry vary? Squishy Lexus guts is my guess. 

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
12/31/24 10:17 a.m.
TravisTheHuman said:
STM317 said:
TravisTheHuman said:

If the NX and the RAV4 are the same basic thing why does the RAV4 get so much better gas mileage?  Weird.

<evidence that I'm an idiot>

Oops, got too trusting of google results.  And so did Mndsm?

I'm using purely highway results. I drive basically no city miles. I'm also using previous generation tech, as in the nx300 VS the 350.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) UltimaDork
12/31/24 10:50 a.m.

So many different possibilities and combinations here that the answer truly is "it depends".  In 2021 I bought a 2014 Toyota Prius C.  I forget exactly how many miles it had, but it was right around 265,000.  One owner, extensive service history and very clearly well cared for.  I paid $3500.  My wife and I drove the hell out of it for two years.  It was trouble free all the way to 325,000 miles, when the head gasket started to fail.  So I got 60k miles at 50mpg in a $3500 car.  I know most people aren't a fan of the Prius C, but I actually liked the car. Even when the head gasket went, the car was still too valuable to let go.  My twins were about to turn 16 and needed cars.  I found a 40k mile replacement engine AND transmission for $500 and had a shop do the install.  So something like $2500 all in for a powertrain swap and the car went to my daughter.  It's now at 355,000 miles and outside of a few curbed rims and creased bumper is as good as ever.

I think in the sub $10k used market a hybrid is a great buy.  For a brand new car, I'd really have to crunch numbers to see if the buy in cost is worth it.

Caperix
Caperix Reader
12/31/24 11:13 a.m.

To further muddy the water, hybrids & plug in hybrids tend to use different battery chemistry.  Toyota differentiates this with the prime designation, though a charging port is a nice visual clue.  Plug in will normally get you a lithium ion battery & a short all electric range, vs a standard hybrid that may still have a NiCd battery pack & essentially no electric only range.

I know there early insights used an electric motor sandwiched between the engine & transmission vs the ecvt that Toyota uses, the later models may have gone to ecvt as well.  Ecvt is more efficient but is not capable of running the car gas only if the battery pack has issues

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress Dork
12/31/24 11:57 a.m.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

So many different possibilities and combinations here that the answer truly is "it depends".  

<SNIP>

I think in the sub $10k used market a hybrid is a great buy.  For a brand new car, I'd really have to crunch numbers to see if the buy in cost is worth it.

Agree with all of the above.

After driving a 2012 Prius V (station wagon yo!) for 60k miles at 45 mpg I still love it. I didn't start out looking for a hybrid, I started out looking for a reliable car that fit my needs and ended up with a Prius.

Japanspec
Japanspec Reader
12/31/24 4:46 p.m.

Wow, thanks guys for all the information! I have a lot to consider, and a few other cars to research so I appreciate it. I wasn't expecting GRM'ers to be so into hybrids considering the types of projects we have...but I guess you daily a hybrid so you can save some money for that turbo K swap you're doing in your backyard, right? wink

@SKJSS I'm glad you brought up the Prius C. Talk to me about that some more if you don't mind. I was looking into those actually for quite some time but all the information I found online was from Prius owners who said the C was "a bare bones, piece of crap version" of the Prius and wasn't worth another look. Your experience seems to say otherwise?

Speaking of plug in hybrids, from what I've read online they aren't really worth the premium over regular hybrids unless most of your driving is done in town within the range of the EV mode on those. Of course, I could be wrong as I'm just going off of what I read online. If anyone has anything to share on those feel free to, as I'm always open to challenging what I have gotten in my research!

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