The M3... (err, M4) is now AUTO only

To me:

Automatic = DD
Manual = race car
Manumatic (twin-clutch or other) = ??? jack of all trades, master of none

But then, I don't buy new premium cars, so I'm sure BMW doesn't care what I think.

Didn't BMW already learn their lesson of not offering a manual gear box when they released the e60 M5 with only the SMG? The current F whatever M5 offers a manual as well as the SMG IIRC. The M4 will probably flop sales wise in the US and hopefully BMW will bring back the manual in the next gen M3/4. On the plus side, F30 M3/4 prices may tumble when they reach the used market due to lessened demand for it making for a decently priced M track car. Hopefully.

fanfoy wrote: To me: Automatic = DD Manual = race car Manumatic (twin-clutch or other) = ??? jack of all trades, master of none But then, I don't buy new premium cars, so I'm sure BMW doesn't care what I think.

Except for track applications the DCT is better than a straight manual.

If it's an automatic, then BMW sucks.
If it's a dual clutch manual, awesome.

I suspect it's the latter, but this thread doesn't seem to have decided.

toad9977 wrote: Didn't BMW already learn their lesson of not offering a manual gear box when they released the e60 M5 with only the SMG? The current F whatever M5 offers a manual as well as the SMG IIRC.

The current M5 & M6 come standard with a DSG and have a manual trans option -- the DSG is two generations newer than the tech in the E60's SMG. The take rate on the manual is less than 10%.

toad9977 wrote: The M4 will probably flop sales wise in the US and hopefully BMW will bring back the manual in the next gen M3/4. On the plus side, F30 M3/4 prices may tumble when they reach the used market due to lessened demand for it making for a decently priced M track car. Hopefully.

Good luck with that. From BMW to Porsche to Ferrari, the market is showing a higher demand for DSG-equipped cars than manual cars, a trend that everyone in the industry is predicting will continue.

z31maniac wrote:

fanfoy wrote: To me: Automatic = DD Manual = race car Manumatic (twin-clutch or other) = ??? jack of all trades, master of none But then, I don't buy new premium cars, so I'm sure BMW doesn't care what I think.

Except for track applications the DCT is better than a straight manual.

Agreed. They are much better at burning their oil and turning themselves into expensive anchors. The sequential gearbox used in most pro racing series as nothing in common with the SMG, DCT, etc... that the manufacturers are selling you.

Also, as an amateur racer, I will take that 0.5s slower lap time not to have to rebuild my transmission every race.

I am sure that those transmissions will become reliable in the future. But until then, I'll let other people pay for the development.

nderwater wrote:

toad9977 wrote: Didn't BMW already learn their lesson of not offering a manual gear box when they released the e60 M5 with only the SMG? The current F whatever M5 offers a manual as well as the SMG IIRC.

The current M5 & M6 come standard with a DSG and have a manual trans option -- the DSG is two generations newer than the tech in the E60's SMG. The take rate on the manual is less than 10%.

toad9977 wrote: The M4 will probably flop sales wise in the US and hopefully BMW will bring back the manual in the next gen M3/4. On the plus side, F30 M3/4 prices may tumble when they reach the used market due to lessened demand for it making for a decently priced M track car. Hopefully.

Good luck with that. From BMW to Porsche to Ferrari, the market is showing a *higher* demand for DSG-equipped cars than manual cars, a trend that everyone in the industry is predicting will continue.

DCT = BMW
PDK = Porsche
DSG = VAG products

HappyAndy wrote: I'm certain that the Germans have a sound (in their minds) technical reason for no longer offering a stick shift.

you vill like zee auto, you vill not complain!!!!

I hope the new SMG is better than what the E46 M3 had. I briefly owned an E46 M3 with the automated manual SMG transmission and I hated it!

amg_rx7 wrote: I've never had an auto that I didn't break. Even the 06 Mini with the POS 6 speed, flappy paddle, Aisan trans. On the other hand, I've never broken a manual trans or wore out a clutch.

Then you've never driven older Europeran sports cars with manual transmissions that had no problems breaking when used hard (as in autocross or road racing). Synchros going bad, shift forks bending, gear teath shearing off, bearings going bad, clutch disks and pressure plates and throwout bearings going bad, etc....

I've had numerous manual transmissions that woudl pop out of gear, or that literally woudln't go into gear. I've had Porsches that slipped the clutch real bad and barely made it home at least once.

I really hate supposed car enthusaists that go around claiming that manual transmissions don't break. They break just as easily as automatics. And are just as difficult and delicate to fix.

4cylndrfury wrote:

HappyAndy wrote: I'm certain that the Germans have a sound (in their minds) technical reason for no longer offering a stick shift.

you vill like zee auto, you vill not complain!!!!

I read in Panorama (Porsche Club magazine) that Porsche's official response to criticism regarding the auto-only GT3 was a rather unpleasant, "shut up and drive!"

nderwater said: Good luck with that. From BMW to Porsche to Ferrari, the market is showing a higher demand for DSG-equipped cars than manual cars, a trend that everyone in the industry is predicting will continue.

You are probably right. I just hate to admit that this is the way it's going to be. I guess I will just have to hang onto my e92 335i with a real 6-sped forever.

BTW, this is a spy shot of the interior of the new M3:

Since the M4 is merely the 2 door version of the M3 (which will also be sold here) then it stands to reason it will be availble with the same manual transmission that's in the M3. In fact, the Autoblog post about the M4 being automatic only is incorrect, according to BMW and BMW sites.

M030 wrote: I hope the new SMG is better than what the E46 M3 had. I briefly owned an E46 M3 with the automated manual SMG transmission and I hated it!

SMG != DCT

Why is no one getting this? The SMG was an automated manual, the SMG gearbox can even easily be converted to a manual box.

The DCT works like the F1 video earlier with a clutch on each shaft. They aren't the same at all other than being a transmission.

M030 wrote: I hope the new SMG is better than what the E46 M3 had. I briefly owned an E46 M3 with the automated manual SMG transmission and I hated it!

You must have drove it in Auto mode alot......

In reply to yamaha:

No, it sucked in manual mode, too

M030 wrote: In reply to yamaha: No, it sucked in manual mode, too

You do understand that SMG is in NO WAY related to a dual clutch transmission, right?

Chris_V wrote: Since the M4 is merely the 2 door version of the M3

I believed it was the 1 Series coupe. Now I recall that would be the M2. Let the bashing continue.

M030 wrote: In reply to yamaha: No, it sucked in manual mode, too

Odd, did you have it long enough to get the tcu reflash for the CSL SMG tune? Between that and having proper settings, it was good.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I believed it was the 1 Series coupe. Now I recall that would be the M2. Let the bashing continue.

Your ninja edit happened when I was typing this......they seem to be going to even numbers for coupes.

Either way, reports are autoblog was wrong and there will be a manual offered. Not that this revelation would stop the BMW bashing.......it never stops.

ansonivan wrote: I for one miss my crank start and manual distributor advance. Truth be told I kinda crave replacing points every 3,500 miles and lighting my acetylene headlamps.

Hey, those are my lines...

I wonder how many people who enjoy the "driver interaction" of driving a three-pedal car will also junk a trans just because the synchronizers don't work anymore. I guess that having to actually work is too much driver involvement.

Chris_V wrote: I really hate supposed car enthusaists that go around claiming that manual transmissions don't break. They break just as easily as automatics. And are just as difficult and delicate to fix.

Automatics are usually stronger than manuals. Planetary automatics, anyway.

Knurled wrote:

Javelin wrote: You may now begin the gnashing of teeth!

*note: gnashing of teeth offer not valid because you can't miss a shift anymore

Gnashing of toothless gums...

Knurled wrote:

ansonivan wrote: I for one miss my crank start and manual distributor advance. Truth be told I kinda crave replacing points every 3,500 miles and lighting my acetylene headlamps.

Hey, those are my lines... I wonder how many people who enjoy the "driver interaction" of driving a three-pedal car will also junk a trans just because the synchronizers don't work anymore. I guess that having to actually work is *too much* driver involvement.

I have broken a few manuals.. 1 Type 1 Vw and 2 Fiat 124 transmissions. My Saab 900 came to me with a broken diff

Chris_V wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote: I've never had an auto that I didn't break. Even the 06 Mini with the POS 6 speed, flappy paddle, Aisan trans. On the other hand, I've never broken a manual trans or wore out a clutch.

Then you've never driven older Europeran sports cars with manual transmissions that had no problems breaking when used hard (as in autocross or road racing). Synchros going bad, shift forks bending, gear teath shearing off, bearings going bad, clutch disks and pressure plates and throwout bearings going bad, etc.... I've had numerous manual transmissions that woudl pop out of gear, or that literally woudln't go into gear. I've had Porsches that slipped the clutch real bad and barely made it home at least once. I really hate supposed car enthusaists that go around claiming that manual transmissions don't break. They break just as easily as automatics. And are just as difficult and delicate to fix.

OK. Let me qualify that comment by saying that I have not been able to break any of the manual transmissions on my Mazdas - Miata, Gen 1, 2 and 3 RX7, Protege - or my e30 and e36.

I did break the one on my A1 VW. Those were known to self-machine themselves. Good ole German engineering...

amg_rx7 wrote: OK. Let me qualify that comment by saying that I have not been able to break any of the manual transmissions on my Mazdas - Miata, Gen 1, 2 and 3 RX7, Protege - or my e30 and e36.

I got more where those came from...