The M3... (err, M4) is now AUTO only

Crazy analogy ahead... The manual vs. auto thing reminds me of 5 Hour Energy: I don't just want caffeine handed to me in a pretty little bottle. I wanna grind it, brew it, add my cream and sweetener and drink it from my own cup.

Im beginning to think Auto is an obsolete term. There's MUCH more variety under the term Auto then there was 15 years ago and some are much much better than others. There is a big difference between a planetary-based auto and an auto-shifted manual such as a dual clutch, and number of gears makes a big difference as well.

For most of us, manual consists of 80+% 5 and 6 spd with only a few outliers, and ALL of them have major things in common about how they work and the driving experience.

Auto could cover anything from 2 to 9 gears or infinitely variable ratios. It could be a planetary-based auto or an automatically shifted manual. It could be a CVT, based on either pulleys or, in the case of some hybrids, planetaries and electric motor/generators. It could have a torque converter or a start clutch. It could have a console shifter, a column shifter, a shifter with only 2 selectable forward ranges, a shifter that lets you pick any gear, a shifter that lets you simulate a gear, no shifter at all besides a knob with a button for park, paddle shifters, etc. There's a huge range of stuff that falls under 'auto' and some of them are much better than others.

I think if a car like a BMW M4 only comes with an auto, chances are high it's going to be one of the good ones.

Knurled wrote:

ansonivan wrote: I for one miss my crank start and manual distributor advance. Truth be told I kinda crave replacing points every 3,500 miles and lighting my acetylene headlamps.

Hey, those are my lines... I wonder how many people who enjoy the "driver interaction" of driving a three-pedal car will also junk a trans just because the synchronizers don't work anymore. I guess that having to actually work is *too much* driver involvement.

As an instructor, judging by the number of students I see who try and fail miserably to do a heel and toe downshift, I welcome our DCT overlords. This is especially true when we are deep in the braking zone and the student is fixated on the tach and has forgotten to really brake...

The other consideration that we have not discussed is that torque converter autos are expensive to manufacture and many manufacturers go to ZF or GM etc to buy an auto transmission. These same manufacturers would prefer to build or buy one transmission while still meeting the requirements of their customers. The DCT tranny offers the manufacturers the best of both worlds. One basic transmission that is cheaper to build or buy than the torque converter auto and that can still offer an auto mode and a manual mode. In addition the manufacturer in many cases can get better mpg from the automated manual than the torque converter auto for the EPA or Eurozone test.

I wouldn't exactly call a dual clutch trans an auto, but I think someones probably covered that already.

I am expressing outrage for something I will never buy not care to, rawr.

Love me internets forums.

As long as the new BMW 3/4 series are as ugly, expensive and heavy as they currently are, I could care less. But I hope cars like the Miata never lose the third pedal. If it doesn't have a clutch pedal, it is a auto. I don't care if it is a 8 speed in a LaFerrari or a 3 speed in a Le Car.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: I am expressing outrage for something I will never buy not care to, rawr. Love me internets forums.

Maybe, but it's still ok to have and express opinions even though we may never own one right?

kanaric wrote: I wouldn't exactly call a dual clutch trans an auto, but I think someones probably covered that already.

VW does.

amg_rx7 wrote: I've never had an auto that I didn't break.

amg_rx7 wrote: OK. Let me qualify that comment by saying that I have not been able to break any of the manual transmissions on my Mazdas - Miata, Gen 1, 2 and 3 RX7, Protege - or my e30 and e36.

And I've never had an auto (and out of 120 cars I've owned the percentige is about 30%) that I DID break, and that includes domestic automatics in race cars and German automatics in daily drivers. OTOH, with my RX7s, one had bad synchros and one killed a clutch in autcrossing (to be fair, both had over 100k miles on them when I got them, so they could have been abused before that point)

Anyway...

Never really understood the deep seated outrage about not needing to wiggle your left foot occasionally in some cars ("OMG, it is missing the thrid pedal, I'll NEVER drive that car!"). And the misplaced elitism that seems to come from it. It's supposedly so hard and intricate that doing it makes you a real man (when talking about how your a better driver and makes you concentrate more and takes more skill), and yet at the same time, it's supposedly so easy a grandma can do it (when countering someone who doesn't want the hassle for traffic).

I prever and love a good manual and have put manuals in cars that were never available with them, but some cars simply don't need to have 3 pedals to be good cars and enjoyable to drive. And you're not any less of a "man" for driving one, or in any less control or having any less fun in them (cars like the M series are prime examples, but so are luxury cars like my old E38 7 series, or my V8 RX7 with the built autobox, or many classic musclecars that were actually much better to drive with shift kitted automatics than with the primitive extermal linkage manuals they were optional with...)

^Thank you!

Chris_V wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote: I've never had an auto that I didn't break.

amg_rx7 wrote: OK. Let me qualify that comment by saying that I have not been able to break any of the manual transmissions on my Mazdas - Miata, Gen 1, 2 and 3 RX7, Protege - or my e30 and e36.

And I've never had an auto (and out of 120 cars I've owned the percentige is about 30%) that I DID break, and that includes domestic automatics in race cars and German automatics in daily drivers. OTOH, with my RX7s, one had bad synchros and one killed a clutch in autcrossing (to be fair, both had over 100k miles on them when I got them, so they could have been abused before that point)

To be fair, if you've owned that many cars, you aren't keeping them long enough or putting enough miles on them to do much damage.

The rev match feature in the new Vette further blurs the lines. Yes, it's a true three pedal manual, but part of the process is done for you. Automating rev matching while doing everything else manually makes you faster and is easier on the car.

I personally don't care if it has a clutch so long as whatever I'm driving is the faster option. If it has an automatic mode, bonus.

Your sad devotion to that ancient transmission has not helped you conjure up faster lap times or given you enough acceleration to outrun your competition!

I enjoy the act of driving and IMHO a manual is more fun then an automatic. To be fair I have never tried a flappy paddle and I would certainly be willing to but I just wish manufactures still offered an option of a manual.

Of coarse my next car is more then likely going to be a Jag XJ which doesn't even have available manual. Couldn't really be bother by the fact the M3 has gone away from manuals though cause I don't really like BMW that much.

scardeal wrote: I personally don't care if it has a clutch so long as whatever I'm driving is the faster option. If it has an automatic mode, bonus. Your sad devotion to that ancient transmission has not helped you conjure up faster lap times or given you enough acceleration to outrun your competition!

99% of cars don't ever make it to a competitive environment. Shaving a few tenths of a second per shift isn't going to get me to work any quicker. If you drive for fun, why not keep features in your car that make driving it more fun?

HappyAndy wrote: I'm certain that the Germans have a sound (in their minds) technical reason for no longer offering a stick shift.

It's not technical, it's profit. Why pay all the engineering cost, then the EPA certification costs for a market that's less than 10% of your hoped for customers?

People in North America don't buy cars where they need a hand and a foot to shift gears. It interferes with their texting! They might buy a clutch less auto-manual, but I bet they use the auto only function 99% of the time.

Rusnak_322 wrote: If you drive for fun, why not keep features in your car that make driving it more fun?

Shifting gears doesn't do it for everyone.

ebonyandivory wrote: Crazy analogy ahead... The manual vs. auto thing reminds me of 5 Hour Energy: I don't just want caffeine handed to me in a pretty little bottle. I wanna grind it, brew it, add my cream and sweetener and drink it from my own cup.

That is a very good analogy!

scardeal wrote:

Rusnak_322 wrote:

Shifting gears doesn't do it for everyone.

I agree with Scardeal. Shifting gears doesn't do it for everyone.

That is why those of us who still enjoy three pedal operation better put our money where our mouth is! If you want your favorite brand to continue making three pedal cars, then buy one every now and then.

My wife and I both love three pedal cars so we don't consider others. But every time we look we find less and less models available with three pedals. Most of the dealers around here only order them on their lowest priced models. We had to go out of town to buy a Honda Fit Sport with a manual!

pinchvalve wrote: Why do you think sailboats are still around? Sure, they are slower than powerboats and you have to do a lot of manual labor to work one, but people ENJOY the act of sailing!

you must be a Monohull Sailor...

(just kidding... I completely understand your point!)

I posted another thought on facebook yesterday that i think belongs here too.

My attachment to the manual trans driving experience comes from a couple major things. 1 is control, which a lot of autos are getting much better about. But the other and probably more important in my weird little world, is the connection to the machine. I like to be able to feel what is going on on the other side of those pedals and levers. Because of that, i tend to like the way OLDER manuals drive the most. I like cable and linkage-actuaged clutches more than hydraulic, i like my shifters with stiff bushings so i can feel the thrum of the moving parts, i like my motor mounts without any fluids or wires, i prefer my flywheel to be of a SINGLE mass only. In essence, i like the feeling of driving a glorified tractor. For me, it seems like the 80s were the high point of manual transmissions because manufacturers hadnt yet put much effort into insulating you from the fact that you were operating machinery. That's why i like driving and shifting mid-80s 4 runners and YJ Wranglers and K-cars and OLD Hondas.

So there are some manuals i dont get excited about. There are also types of cars that MY kind of manual really doesnt suit, and im ok with that. In that case, i want a GOOD auto! I have my preferences. I dont like start clutches much, they make me nervous and uncomfortable. I dont like CVTs other than the hybrid ones. I like more gears, but i dont like shifts you cant feel even at WOT. I really prefer an automated manual to a planetary-based auto. Some of these preferences are competing or mutually exclusive. So, like my taste in manuals, my taste in autos is nuanced. I certainly dont dislike all of them. I think there are certain kinds of cars that a certain kind of auto is the BEST option for. I havent owned them yet, but i look forward to it..

Vigo wrote: My attachment to the manual trans driving experience comes from a couple major things. 1 is control...

I agree, control is the key issue. Being an autocross instructor and driving lots of novice's cars, I have experienced many different automatics, but only a few have actually done what I told them to do, when I told them to. I have encountered delays, unintended shifts, inopportune upshifts or downshifts (like right in the middle of a corner), etc. When and if a transmission does exactly what I tell it to do, and does it immediately, I will consider owning own. Until then, I'll shift myself, thank you very much.

scardeal wrote: Your sad devotion to that ancient transmission has not helped you conjure up faster lap times or given you enough acceleration to outrun your competition!

Don't try to frighten us with your marketing ways, Lord Scardeal.

This whole page is still ranting about something that the internet rags got wrong in the first place......there will be a manual offering.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/future-cars/future-car-news/go-news-future-car-news-bmw-m4-will-have-manual-transmission

Nice!

In North America, the take rate for M3 manuals was a staggering 44% over the life of the E90-series cars.

Too bad about the name still, though. And the artificial engine music in the M5. And the 6-Series "Grand Coupe" 4-door.

Anywho, I like how so many people here have talked about how manuals are dead and take rates are down and autos are the future, and .01 sec of lap time in the hamfists of a crappy auto journalist, etc, etc.

Funny, Ford's ST's (Fiesta & Focus) are manual only, and they offer the stick on all trim levels of the regular Fiesta and Focus, as well as on the 1.6L EcoBoost Fusion SE. Not mention all levels of the Mustang (plus the Boss 302 and the Shelby GT500 are stick only).

Mazda's Mazdaspeed line up has always been manual-only. Further, their sports cars (MX-5 and the departed RX-8) had manual take rates over the auos. Not to mention they offer a stick with the "Sport" Trim of nearly their entire lineup, including the 2, 3, 6, CX-5, and even the 5 minivan (in my garage it's so good).

Buick even offers some manuals, in both the Verano Turbo, and the Regal GS. Dodge offers a 6-speed manual in the Ram 2500 still.

Still don't believe me? USA Today, MINI, and Vanity Fair, amongst many other such as Edmunds, keep reporting about surprising increases in manual transmission take rates.

The take rate for MINI buyers is vastly higher at 34 percent. Depending on the region, that number can be even higher, with roughly half (49%) of all MINIs sold in New England being manuals.

The Subaru BRZ is driven by the availability of a manual; nearly 70 percent of BRZs bought in the U.S. have a stick.

Automotive News said: Hyundai reports a 30 percent stickshift take rate on its sporty Veloster coupe. GM has been surprised by the nearly 20 percent take rate for manual transmissions on the Chevy Sonic subcompact. Ford says it expects 10 percent of its Focus sales this year to be manual, a healthy rate for a compact.

Long live the stick shift!