The Official Challenge Rules Questions Thread

My apologies, Andrew.

Sometimes quite a few of us around here slip on your name. I didn't realize you had a preference, but I will certainly not make that mistake again. Please forgive me.

Sounds like you and I are agreeing. I have never questioned your budgets. I have reveiwed several of them, and am thoroughly impressed.

Thanks for the clarification, Andrew.

Andrew. Thanks for posting that clarification. I hadn't gotten to a point in our project that I needed to ask the question, but it would have come up eventually.

DLD

Another question. if we pick up free stuff, like sheet metal, washing machine, fridge, etc. from a Craigslist ad do we have to claim FMV for it? If we have the Craigslist ad for it free or super cheap, is that acceptable? I think I read somewhere that one of the competitors had put an ad on Craigslist asking if people had those sorts of things picked up, and retrieved them for metal.

I believe those are usually valued at your local scrap weight.

In reply to DLD:

If it was advertised for free, and available to pretty much anyone for free, it's free.

Team Gutty actually placed an ad on Craiglist offering to pick up old refrigerators so they could get free sheet metal. They also used a free found sink to make the Civic's gas tank. Most towns have a day when you can put junk at the curb, so go picking for free stuff.

Thanks guys. I thought that was the way it is, but wanted to make sure. I have to say the challenge of finding stuff super cheap or free that can be used in the build is a lot of fun for me. A great challenge! I look forward to meeting you all. DLD

As a hopeful $2015 contender, I would like to make a case that the rules need to be clearer and contain more actual rule content and explanation. The need for this is evident in the numerous clarifications on the forum threads. If you want one page of rules, than remove the content that isn’t actually rules from the rules so that rules can be clear, concise and informative. You guys run a magazine, your job is to be clear and you do a good job at it, I love the mag.

See this clear and concise explanation of budget recouping and trades woefully lacking from the $2014 and $2015 rule set, which I included at the bottom. This info should be contained in the rules.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2014-challenge-rules-question/76560/page1/

“SVreXMegaDork

June 25, 2014 6:02 p.m.

Neither.

You can recoup up to the purchase price of the car or parts deal, in this case $1000.

You may not exceed $1007 worth of recoup from everything on the finished Challenge car.

So, if you buy the car for $1000 and motor/ trans combo for $500 and sell the trans for $300, you may claim $1000 from parts sold off the car purchased, and $7 from the sale of the trans.

BUT, you don't want to do it. Trading is unlimited until the recoup limit is reached.

So, recoup the $1000, don't bother recouping the $7, and trade the trans for a turbo setup.”

$2015 rules state:

“Budget: Net cost of the Challenge car and its preparation for presentation at the event must be equal to or less than a dollar amount equaling the year of the competition. Up to half the total budget may be recouped by selling parts originally included with or attached to the Challenge car at the time of purchase. Your purchase price of the Challenge car cannot top that year’s budget cap.”

Therefore, if you are asking people to participate/invest, which for me means building the car (time/money), taking time off work, driving 1200 miles from NY, associated fuel costs, and paying the $150 to enter, then the rules should be written so that minimun 95% of their meaning should be self-evident. Reading threads should not be a Eureka moment on budget topics as simple as how much is allowed to be recouped and trading.

Thank you,

Eric

In reply to ejroy09:

I'm gonna step in, since you quoted me.

I appreciate that you liked my explanation, but with all due respect, calm down.

The rules state exactly what I stated. The only difference is that I gave examples to clarify.

If you'd like a lot of rules, that won't make it more clear. See SCCA rules, or NHRA. Or anyone's.

I find the answer to almost everyone's rules question should be, read the rules.

I have been to the Challenge for 11 years. I respect the staff that they are looking to make this a fun event, not about rules.

I wouldn't have a chance of participating at an event that cared more about their rules. I'd be a total failure.

Bring what you want, and don't sweat the rules so much. Ask us for clarification if you need some.

And BTW,

I've gotten my hand slapped for caring too much about the rules (just last month).

There are only 2 rules that matter:

• First Rule: This event is meant to be a fun editorial exercise so that Grassroots Motorsports can show its readers what creative people can do with a car, their hands and a little cash.

• Last Rule: Remember, this event is all about having fun and being creative, and these rules supersede the ones from past Challenges. Have a question about the event? Just ask.

Look forward to seeing you there!

SVreX wrote: In reply to ejroy09: I'm gonna step in, since you quoted me. ....The rules state exactly what I stated. The only difference is that I gave examples to clarify...

Thanks for reply, I am calm, but your statement is not true. The rules do not say anything about:

1) recouping money from parts deals

2) trading is unlimited until full amount of car or parts deal is recouped, but makes it seem as though you can recoup $1007 from car even if you payed less for it.

Instead, the rules make it seem like you can only recoup money from the car and parts included with car at time of purchase. These are things I picked up from years of event coverage, but should be in the rules. You have been there 11 years so you know, anyone new has to read the "rules" in numerous threads. I don't want to be called out on vague rules

In reply to ejroy09:

You won't be called out on vague rules.

Is that what you want to hear?

My examples were based on my experience, and the previous rules set. I've been wrong before.

Build to the rules. If it is open to interpretation, then interpret. It becomes a very good part of your story, which is what this event is all about.

If you want to show up to call out other people based on your interpretations, stay home.

In reply to ejroy09:

Trading is not mentioned in the new rules.

Interpret.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

In reply to ejroy09:

Here's what I am trying to tell you...

My first year, I was also worried about being "called out on rules".

It's looser than you think. There are no "rules police" that are gonna come down on you. Read it, interpret it, and be prepared to tell your story (and explain your interpretation).

Additionally, tight rules are impossible. They tried that- every rule makes more loopholes.

Enjoy the freedom.

Dear editors:

For the $2015 challenge

Can we recoupe money from parts deals up to initial buy price from each parts deal?

Can we trade parts for parts without it hitting the budget? (or must be added at FMV like the rules state)

If the answer is yes to either, the rules are not descriptive enough

"Any inside deals—parts, whole cars, trades, donations, stolen parts, etc.—must be added to the budget at fair market value. If you can’t figure out the value of a part, ask on the message board at grassrootsmotorsports.com."

In reply to ejroy09:

I think that while neither is specifically prohibited, it should be related to the car you are building. (i.e. if I see an LS1 on craigslist for $100 and I go buy it only to turn around and sell it for $200, that has nothing to do with my challenge build so that does not count toward recoup, but if I bought the LS1 to use the oil pan and then sold the rest for $100 I call that a free oil pan. If I sold the rest for $150, I would not say that is a free oil pan + a $50 recoup).

you can trade parts for parts with no budget hit if it is NOT an inside deal. If the trade is relatively available to everyone, then no budget hit. If your uncle gives you a 500 hp crate motor in trade for a civic passenger seat but would not make that trade to anyone else, then you need to take the budget hit.

Really, I think the rules are quite simple:

Buy a car for $2015 or less. Recoup up to 1007 dollars fairly selling/trading&selling parts from the car+stuff you originally bought. Don't cheat. If you think what you are doing is fair, just be ready to explain it and it probably is.

In reply to ejroy09:

I understand you are not looking for my answer.

You are asking a question that has a very clear and specific answer, which is well understood by anyone who has been there., and most who have not.

I don't think the editors are looking to watch every detail of this forum to try to answer questions they've been very clear on before.

I guarantee they will not come here and give an interpretation that is outside what they have explained for the last 12 or so years. It would upset way too many people.

I also understand what you THINK that rule says. Read it again. It is NOT about trades, it is about inside deals.

The rules are descriptive enough. There is a rule against inside deals. There is not one against trading.

Have fun!