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steronz
steronz Reader
2/11/16 10:40 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: If the EPA wants to go after the big fish, all those brand new ND MX-5 Cup cars being sold by Mazda would be illegal. They're catless.

Are they certified motor vehicles according to the EPA? If Mazda sells them without cats (and VINs, presumably), I would think they'd be OK.

If Jay Lamm's lawyer is correct, then as of 2018 you could still

  • Race a non-production vehicle with whatever emissions configuration you want
  • Race a production vehicle with a certified, unaltered emissions configuration

You could not

  • Alter the certified emissions configuration of your street car (but this is already the case)
  • Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you still drive on the street (but this is already the case)
  • Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you trailer to the track (this would be new)

As for what effect this would have on the aftermarket, I can't even speculate. If selling a catless midpipe with a "For offroad use only" disclaimer is kosher, couldn't you just sell a catless midpipe with "For ND MX-5 cup car use only" disclaimer?

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 10:48 a.m.
steronz wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: If the EPA wants to go after the big fish, all those brand new ND MX-5 Cup cars being sold by Mazda would be illegal. They're catless.
Are they certified motor vehicles according to the EPA? If Mazda sells them without cats (and VINs, presumably), I would think they'd be OK. If Jay Lamm's lawyer is correct, then as of 2018 you could still - Race a non-production vehicle with whatever emissions configuration you want - Race a production vehicle with a certified, unaltered emissions configuration You could not - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your street car (but this is already the case) - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you still drive on the street (but this is already the case) - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you trailer to the track (this would be new) As for what effect this would have on the aftermarket, I can't even speculate. If selling a catless midpipe with a "For offroad use only" disclaimer is kosher, couldn't you just sell a catless midpipe with "For ND MX-5 cup car use only" disclaimer?
  • Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you trailer to the track (this would be new)

And this one basically eliminates 90% of the racing I could ever do

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UberDork
2/11/16 10:50 a.m.

The lawyer brief link isn't working for me, either. All I get is a note saying "Perimeter 'Out' is required."

steronz wrote: As for what effect this would have on the aftermarket, I can't even speculate. If selling a catless midpipe with a "For offroad use only" disclaimer is kosher, couldn't you just sell a catless midpipe with "For ND MX-5 cup car use only" disclaimer?

That could potentially work for vehicles where they built a factory race version with no emissions certification. It wouldn't work for something that did not have such versions.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 10:51 a.m.

MEMORANDUM TO: Jay Lamm, 24 Hours of LeMons FROM: Pat Mulry DATE: February 9, 2016 RE: EPA Rule Change Regarding Ban on Modifying Emissions of Certified Vehicles & Potential Effect on Motorsport Pursuant to our telephone conversation this morning regarding the so-called “LeMons Law”, I have reviewed the existing applicable U.S. Code sections, the Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”) and the rules changes proposed by the EPA, as set forth in volume 80 of the Federal Register. These are the rules changes referred to in the SEMA press release of February 8, 2016. This memo will review the applicable law, explain the proposed changes in the law, and discuss the likely impact these changes would have on motorsport in the United States. 1. Background SEMA sent out a press release on February 8, 2016 stating that the EPA has proposed a regulation to prohibit conversion of vehicles originally designed for on-road use into race cars. It stated that the regulation would impact “all vehicle types,” including the light-duty passenger cars and light-duty trucks typically modified for racing. The press release contained no citations to the actual rules that the EPA is proposing to change, but noted that Congress has never authorized nor extended the Clean Air Act to regulate competition motor vehicles. 2. Existing Law In order to understand the current issue, we must begin with understanding the current state of the law regarding emissions as it relates to competition motor vehicles. 1 As noted by SEMA in its official comment on the proposed rules, the Motor Vehicle Air Pollution Control Act of 1965 (the “1965 Act”) was the first federal law to regulate motor vehicle emissions. The 1965 Act first defined the term “motor vehicle” as “any self-propelled 1 For the purposes of this Memorandum, the discussion of “competition motor vehicles” is limited to those vehicles that began their lives as passenger cars and light-duty trucks – street cars – which were certified for use on the streets and highways of the U.S. This Memorandum is not concerned with purpose-built race cars, such as tube- frame oval track cars, IndyCars, etc., as those are exempted from emissions regulations. Jay Lamm February 9, 2016 Page 2 vehicle designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway.” 2 50 years later, that remains the definition of “motor vehicle” contained in the United States Code. 3 In 1970, Congress passed the Clean Air Act Amendments (the “CAA”). The CAA did not disturb the definition of “motor vehicle” as set forth in the 1965 Act, but it did mandate new emissions standards and expanded the anti-tampering provision to require that no person render emissions controls inoperative after first sale. While on first blush that would seem to require emissions controls on all racing vehicles that are converted from their original street use, the committee notes make it clear that the intent of the legislation was never to regulate racing vehicles: MR. NICHOLS: “I would ask the distinguished chairman if I am correct in stating that the terms “vehicle” and “vehicle engine” as used in the act do not include vehicles or vehicle engines manufactured for, modified for or utilized in organized motor racing events which, of course, are held very infrequently but which utilize all types of vehicles and vehicle engines?” MR. STAGGERS: “In response to the gentleman from Alabama, I would say to the gentleman they would not come under the provisions of this act, because the act deals only with automobiles used on our roads in everyday use. The act would not cover the types of racing vehicles to which the gentleman referred, and present law does not cover them either.” 4 The CAA has been amended numerous times since 1970, including in 1977 and in 1990. Neither amendment sought to include racing vehicles in the definition of “motor vehicle,” which has remained the legal term for a motorized vehicle intended to carry people or objects on public roads. Motorized vehicles which are not intended to carry people or objects on public roads— bulldozers, farm tractors, snowmobiles, airplanes, etc. – are generally considered “nonroad vehicles.” In 1990, Congress amended the definition of “nonroad vehicle” to permit the EPA to regulate some nonroad vehicles such as locomotives, snowmobiles, and off-highway motorcycles. However, Congress unequivocally excluded competition vehicles from the definition of “nonroad vehicle” (“the term ‘nonroad vehicle’ means a vehicle that is powered by a nonroad engine and that is not a motor vehicle or a vehicle used solely for competition”). 2 Motor Vehicle Air Pollution Control Act, Pub. L. No. 89-272, 79 Stat. 992 (1965) at §208 (2). 3 42 U.S.C. §7550 (2) (2015). 4 House Consideration of the Report of the Conference committee, Dec. 18, 1970 (reprinted in A legislative history of the Clean Air Amendments of 1970, together with a section-by-section index, U.S. LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY DIVISION, Washington: U.S. Govt. Print. Off. Serial No. 93-18, 1974, p.117). Jay Lamm February 9, 2016 Page 3 Similarly, a “nonroad engine” means an internal combustion engine that is not used in a motor vehicle or a vehicle used solely for competition. 6 As a result, based on the statutory text and the legislative history, competition vehicle emissions have never fallen under the ambit of the EPA and the CAA, as amended. As discussed in the section below, the EPA shares this understanding and is seeking to end the emissions control exemption for competition motor vehicles such as the light-duty motor vehicles commonly used in motorsport. 3. EPA’s Proposed Changes: Bring Competition Motor Vehicle Emissions Within the CAA and thus EPA Control On Monday, July 13, 2015, the EPA published its proposed rules 7 entitled “Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Fuel efficiency Standards for Medium- and Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicles – Phase 2.” The stated purpose of the proposed rules is “to establish a comprehensive national program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and fuel consumption for new on-road heavy-duty vehicles, particularly for tractor-trailers, heavy-duty pickups and vans, and vocational vehicles (such as farm tractors).” 8 The EPA intends to publish the final rule in July 2016. The EPA 9 recognizes that competition vehicle emissions do not fall squarely within the purview of the CAA (as amended), and seeks to eliminate that exclusion beginning in 2018. As the EPA states in the explanatory notes for “Miscellaneous EPA Amendments,” EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does not allow any person to disable, remove, or render inoperative (i.e., tamper with) emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition. 10 An existing provision in 40 CFR 1068.235 provides an exemption for nonroad engines converted for competition use. This provision reflects the explicit exclusion of engines used solely for competition from the CAA definition of “nonroad engine.” The proposed amendment clarifies that this part 1068 exemption does not apply for motor vehicles. 6 42 U.S.C. §7550 (11) (2015) (“nonroad vehicle”); 42 U.S.C. §7550 (10) (2015) (“nonroad engine”). 7 Rules and regulations derive their legal authority from the original law passed by Congress. The CAA, as amended, is a law passed by Congress in the way that we all remember from Schoolhouse Rock and/or high school civics class. Rules and regulations promulgated by Federal agencies are published in the Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”) for the purpose of administering the laws enacted by Congress. Once the final rule is written by the Federal agency and published in the CFR, it has the full weight and effect of a law of the United States. A good tutorial on this process can be found at https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/tutorial/tutorial_070.pdf 8 80 Fed. Reg. 40138 (2015). 9 More precisely, the proposed changes discussed herein to the CFR are jointly proposed by the EPA and the NHTSA, as both have jurisdiction over rules regarding emissions and fuel consumption. Because the proposed rule refers to both entities simply as the EPA, this memorandum will do so also. 10 The EPA’s use here of “clarify” seems Orwellian at best. Jay Lamm February 9, 2016 Page 4 Given the reference to various sections of the CFR, the provision above may benefit from further explanation. The reference in the first sentence to 40 C.F.R. § 1037.601(a)(3) would require that those who modify heavy-duty vehicles for competition use cannot tamper with emissions controls. 11,12 While troublesome for some autosport enthusiasts of heavy-duty vehicles and those who like to “roll coal” on their competition brodozers, it is likely that alone, this would not be problematic for most motorsport activities. However, the second sentence reveals the ultimate intent of the EPA to bring competition motor vehicles – in particular, light-duty vehicles and light-duty trucks – within its regulatory authority. As the EPA notes, 40 C.F.R. § 1068.235 provides an express exemption from the CAA for nonroad engines in competition use 13 , but not for street vehicles modified for use solely in competition. The EPA repeatedly proposes to amend various sections of the CFR to clarify that the 1068.235 exception for nonroad engines in competition use does not apply to competition motor vehicles. Competition motor vehicles, which were necessarily once motor vehicles with certified emissions control systems, can never acquire nonroad status in the EPA’s scheme. The EPA’s approach reaches its zenith in two different sections of the proposed rule. 40 CFR 86.1854-12(b)(5) 14 states that Certified motor vehicles 15 and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines; anyone modifying a certified motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any reason is subject to the tampering and defeat device prohibitions of paragraph (a)(3) of this section and 42 USC 7522(a)(3). The proposed rule is more draconian in 40 CFR 1068.101 16 , “What general actions does this regulation prohibit?” The answer is “don’t modify your engine, ever.” It bans: 11 40 C.F.R. § 1037 is the section that contains the administrative rules for “Control of Emissions from Heavy-Duty Motor Vehicles.” 12 Heavy-duty vehicles are generally defined as exceeding 8,500 pounds GVWR or having a curb weight in excess of 6,000 pounds or a basic vehicle frontal area in excess of 45 square feet. 13 Racing snowmobiles, racing dirt bikes, racing ATV’s, etc. 14 40 C.F.R. § 86 is the section that contains the administrative rules for “Control of Emissions from New and In- Use Highway Vehicles and Engines.” 15 A certified motor vehicle or engine/emissions system is a vehicle or system that has passed the EPA testing and has received a certificate of conformity from the EPA Administrator – essentially every production car sold in the U.S. 16 40 C.F.R. § 1068 is the section that contains the administrative rules for “General Compliance Provisions for Highway, Stationary, and Nonroad Programs” The proposed rule also amends 40 C.F.R. § 1068.1 so that Part 1068 applies to light-duty vehicles and light-duty trucks (“vehicles we regulate under 40 CFR Part 86, subpart S….”), 80 Fed. Reg. 40714 (2015) (to be codified as 40 C.F.R. § 1068.1(a)(1)). Jay Lamm February 9, 2016 Page 5 • Knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. Violation of same by a manufacturer or dealer comes with a civil penalty of $37,500 for each engine or piece of equipment in violation; violation by anyone else may be assessed a civil penalty of up to $3,750 per engine or piece of equipment; 17 • Knowingly manufacturing, selling, offering to sell, or installing any component that bypasses, impairs, defeats, or disables the control of emissions of any regulated pollutant. Violation of same may draw a civil penalty of up to $3,750 for each component in violation; 18 • Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines; anyone modifying a certified motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any reason is subject to the tampering and defeat device prohibitions of 1068.101(b): a civil penalty of $37,500 may be subjected for each engine or piece of equipment in violation by a manufacturer or dealer; violation by anyone else may be assessed a civil penalty of up to $3,750 per engine or piece of equipment; 19 • Importation of uncertified engines or equipment is prohibited if it is defined to be “new.” The definition of “new” is broad for imported engines and equipment; uncertified equipment, including used engines and equipment, will generally be considered to be “new;” violators are subject to the manufacturer/dealer penalty of $37,500 for each piece of equipment in violation. 20 Perhaps most troubling is the provision in 40 CFR 1068.101(a) that states that it is prohibited to sell, offer for sale, import, or introduce or deliver into commerce in the US any new engine or equipment after emissions standards take effect for the engine or equipment unless it is covered by a valid certificate of conformity for the model year and has the required label or tag. 21 Although another note indicates that the heavy-duty truck and engine categories would not begin until 2021, 22 this provision could be interpreted to indicate that the proposed rule be applied to any engine/equipment that was certified prior to the effective date of the rule – thus prohibiting modification to any motor vehicle engine in competition that was ever certified for use by the EPA – essentially every engine system sold in the US since the early 70’s. 17 80 Fed. Reg. 40720 (2015) (to be codified as 40 CFR 1068.101(b)(1)). 18 80 Fed. Reg. 40720 (2015) (to be codified as 40 CFR 1068.101(b)(2)). 19 80 Fed. Reg. 40720 (2015) (to be codified as 40 CFR 1068.101 (b)(4)(ii)). 20 80 Fed. Reg. 40720 (2015) (to be codified as 40 CFR 1068.101 (b)(5)). 21 80 Fed. Reg. 40719-40720 (2015) (to be codified as 40 CFR 1068.101 (a)(1)). 22 80 Fed. Reg. 40138 (2015). Jay Lamm February 9, 2016 Page 6 4. What Impact Would this Have on Motorsport in the US? The proposed rules essentially ban the modification of any component of the engine, fuel, and emissions systems. By placing draconian fines on anyone who could be considered a manufacturer or dealer of aftermarket parts that would be used on production-based racing vehicles, these proposed rules will have an incalculably chilling effect on the aftermarket parts market. It is difficult to see how any aftermarket part manufacturer could continue to make and market performance parts without running afoul of this proposed rule unless the part was essentially identical to the factory-certified part. The result of the die-off of aftermarket parts manufacturers will be dramatic. The proposed rules would also ban users from doing many of the things that draw participants to motorsport – including and in particular to mechanically creative series such as 24 Hours of LeMons. For example, weird engine swaps will be a thing of the past if motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition. Cam swaps, different exhaust headers, different intake manifolds are among the equipment which will be banned due to their impact on increased emissions. Not only will the fuel cell manufacturers essentially cease to exist (other than by making fuel cells for purpose-built race cars that are competition vehicles from the outset), it will become illegal to put a fuel cell into the former street cars that comprise the vast majority of motorsport activity in the US. In short, the impact would be devastating. As we discussed this morning, I would be glad to work on coordinating 24 Hours of LeMons’ response to this proposed rule. I will be in the office again all day on Wednesday if you want to discuss this matter further.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
2/11/16 10:52 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you trailer to the track (this would be new) And this one basically eliminates 90% of the racing I could ever do

Basically that leaves vintage racing for W2W...

I am assuming that vintage racing would still be ok since cars didn't have emissions equipment.

Personally I will just hope to not get caught....

steronz
steronz Reader
2/11/16 10:53 a.m.

What's in that 10%? Non-production vehicles with non-certified engines and stock classes that don't allow any engine modifications? Is that really only 10% of the racing community?

And if so, wouldn't that 10% just get bigger as rulebooks changed to comply with the new standard? Does Spec Miata really need to be run without catalytic converters and whatever else you're allowed to change on the engine?

Legitimately wondering here, I don't do any actual W2W besides LeChump so I don't know.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 10:59 a.m.
steronz wrote: What's in that 10%? Non-production vehicles with non-certified engines and stock classes that don't allow any engine modifications? Is that really only 10% of the racing community? And if so, wouldn't that 10% just get bigger as rulebooks changed to comply with the new standard? Does Spec Miata really need to be run without catalytic converters and whatever else you're allowed to change on the engine? Legitimately wondering here, I don't do any actual W2W besides LeChump so I don't know.

It would have to be vintage racing with factory correct everything (including intake and exhaust parts), factory prepped non-road ready racing, and drag racing on completely stock cars.

10% is an estimate, but it's my involvement, not the general racing community. an F1 driver doesn't care about this law, but F1 isn't really part of my sphere of influence, ya know?

Lemons, Chump, HPDE, Autocross (on non stock production vehicles) and all sorts of other things would be eliminated.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
2/11/16 11:00 a.m.

Just to bring you all back to the present....

This is HEAVY- Physicists Detect Gravitational Waves, Proving Einstein Right

That's HOT - China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

but by all means keep complaining about cleaning up the combustion process of your race car

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UberDork
2/11/16 11:02 a.m.
steronz wrote: What's in that 10%? Non-production vehicles with non-certified engines and stock classes that don't allow any engine modifications? Is that really only 10% of the racing community? And if so, wouldn't that 10% just get bigger as rulebooks changed to comply with the new standard? Does Spec Miata really need to be run without catalytic converters and whatever else you're allowed to change on the engine? Legitimately wondering here, I don't do any actual W2W besides LeChump so I don't know.

If drag racing is included in "the racing community", these classes probably would be only 10%, and most of the grassroots racing is using production based vehicles. A class for affordable vehicles that are still smog compliant wouldn't generate nearly so much interest as such a thing could potentially do in road racing, either. You'd end up with slow car bracket racing and then rail dragster / Pro Stock / Funny Car type classes with no room for anything in between.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 11:03 a.m.
steronz wrote: What's in that 10%? Non-production vehicles with non-certified engines and stock classes that don't allow any engine modifications? Is that really only 10% of the racing community? And if so, wouldn't that 10% just get bigger as rulebooks changed to comply with the new standard? Does Spec Miata really need to be run without catalytic converters and whatever else you're allowed to change on the engine? Legitimately wondering here, I don't do any actual W2W besides LeChump so I don't know.

So, those spec Miata's have to have 100% original exhaust and intake systems and such. That means Mazda has to have a part number for those pieces which are required to be used.

And that also means the Amazon I raced needs to have those components from Volvo. From 1965.

And every engine swapped race car is immediately illegal.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 11:04 a.m.
MadScientistMatt wrote:
steronz wrote: What's in that 10%? Non-production vehicles with non-certified engines and stock classes that don't allow any engine modifications? Is that really only 10% of the racing community? And if so, wouldn't that 10% just get bigger as rulebooks changed to comply with the new standard? Does Spec Miata really need to be run without catalytic converters and whatever else you're allowed to change on the engine? Legitimately wondering here, I don't do any actual W2W besides LeChump so I don't know.
If drag racing is included in "the racing community", these classes probably would be only 10%, and most of the grassroots racing is using production based vehicles. A class for affordable vehicles that are still smog compliant wouldn't generate nearly so much interest as such a thing could potentially do in road racing, either. You'd end up with slow car bracket racing and then rail dragster / Pro Stock / Funny Car type classes with no room for anything in between.

Thanks for saying what I was trying, and failing, to say. It's either 100% production, or it's a real race car. Cup cars or minivans, Camry's or Funny Cars.

steronz
steronz Reader
2/11/16 11:14 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: Lemons, Chump, HPDE, Autocross (on non stock production vehicles) and all sorts of other things would be eliminated.

I don't understand how this would eliminate LeMons, Chump, HPDE, or Autocross. Am I missing something? Take your car to the racetrack, modify the suspension, tires, brakes, interior, safety equipment, etc. Just don't touch the engine.

tuna55 wrote: So, those spec Miata's have to have 100% original exhaust and intake systems and such. That means Mazda has to have a part number for those pieces which are required to be used.

Sure, just run the production/certified parts. It wouldn't kill the racing, right? Everyone might be a little bit slower is all.

tuna55 wrote: And that also means the Amazon I raced needs to have those components from Volvo. From 1965.

I don't think the clean air act existed in 1965 so you're good to go.

tuna55 wrote: And every engine swapped race car is immediately illegal.

Yes, I can't see a way around this one. No engine swapping a production car (and if it's not a production car, why would anyone swap the engine).

tuna55 wrote: Thanks for saying what I was trying, and failing, to say. It's either 100% production, or it's a real race car. Cup cars or minivans, Camry's or Funny Cars.

100% production powertrains aren't exactly slouches anymore.

Yes, this would kill amateur drag racing, though. Hard to argue there.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 11:18 a.m.
steronz wrote:
tuna55 wrote: Lemons, Chump, HPDE, Autocross (on non stock production vehicles) and all sorts of other things would be eliminated.
I don't understand how this would eliminate LeMons, Chump, HPDE, or Autocross. Am I missing something? Take your car to the racetrack, modify the suspension, tires, brakes, interior, safety equipment, etc. Just don't touch the engine.

Because you would have to have the original equipment intake, exhaust, and all engine parts.

Good luck sourcing that for the majority of the Lemons and Chump field.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/11/16 11:19 a.m.

Here's a good link to the lawyer's document with line breaks for those who don't want to wade through the GRM-formatted version :)

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/images/EPA-Memo.pdf

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/11/16 11:26 a.m.
steronz wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: If the EPA wants to go after the big fish, all those brand new ND MX-5 Cup cars being sold by Mazda would be illegal. They're catless.
Are they certified motor vehicles according to the EPA? If Mazda sells them without cats (and VINs, presumably), I would think they'd be OK. If Jay Lamm's lawyer is correct, then as of 2018 you could still - Race a non-production vehicle with whatever emissions configuration you want - Race a production vehicle with a certified, unaltered emissions configuration You could not - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your street car (but this is already the case) - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you still drive on the street (but this is already the case) - Alter the certified emissions configuration of your production-based track car that you trailer to the track (this would be new) As for what effect this would have on the aftermarket, I can't even speculate. If selling a catless midpipe with a "For offroad use only" disclaimer is kosher, couldn't you just sell a catless midpipe with "For ND MX-5 cup car use only" disclaimer?

They're modified production vehicles - as far as I can tell, they arrive at Long Road Racing as complete, finished cars to get torn apart. They may not have an MSO, but they'll have a VIN.

I suspect there would have to be some sort of grandfathering here, just like there was when emissions regs were introduced. Race cars built before 2018 may be allowed to run as they do now, but anything built on a 2018 or later model year would need to retain all emissions components.

WildScotsRacing
WildScotsRacing Reader
2/11/16 11:35 a.m.

And if every motorsports facility in the country (all private property) declared all EPA inspectors persona non grata and to be trespassing, with the threat of arrest by local law enforcement for entering the facility...? As far as I know the EPA does not have legal carte blanche to enter my back yard for any reason without my express permission. And, if they have their way with this "no converting production vehicles to race engine status, ever" scheme, is there any reason to believe they won't eventually seek to ban fuel powered R/C model cars, boats, and aircraft, or model rocketry? Someone at the EPA is making this whole thing personal, because there is no reasonble sense to it. Why shouldn't we make it personal right back at them? "And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me..."

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 11:43 a.m.
WildScotsRacing wrote: And if every motorsports facility in the country (all private property) declared all EPA inspectors persona non grata and to be trespassing, with the threat of arrest by local law enforcement for entering the facility...? As far as I know the EPA does not have legal carte blanche to enter my back yard for any reason without my express permission. And, if they have their way with this "no converting production vehicles to race engine status, ever" scheme, is there any reason to believe they won't eventually seek to ban fuel powered R/C model cars, boats, and aircraft, or model rocketry? Someone at the EPA is making this whole thing personal, because there is no reasonble sense to it. Why shouldn't we make it personal right back at them? "And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me..."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268

Basically, the EPA has their own SWAT team, and they raided Gibson guitars. Apparently someone thought that they were using some form of banned wood. As far as I know, nothing was ever proven, and all of the work they had in the shop is gone forever. Poof.

The EPA, being completely unconstitutional, is completely without oversight.

EDIT: I cannot confirm that it was the EPA, nor that the armed agents were in fact the EPA armed agents, but I don't think that matters here.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
2/11/16 12:57 p.m.
tuna55 wrote: It would have to be vintage racing with factory correct everything (including intake and exhaust parts),

That is not true anything pre-Clean air act would be ok to modify.

Perhaps most troubling is the provision in 40 CFR 1068.101(a) that states that it is prohibited to sell, offer for sale, import, or introduce or deliver into commerce in the US any new engine or equipment after emissions standards take effect for the engine or equipment unless it is covered by a valid certificate of conf ormity for the model year and has the required label or t a g . 21 Although another note indicates that the heavy - duty truck and engine categories would not begin until 2021, 22 this provision could be interpreted to indicate that the proposed rule be applie d to any engine/equipment that was certified prior to the effective date of the rule – thus prohibiting modification to any motor vehicle engine in competition that was ever certified for use by the EPA – essentially every engine system sold in the US sinc e the early 70’s.

So my rotary Spitfire plan is still ok!

Too bad my Civic would be in no way legal.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/11/16 12:58 p.m.

In reply to tuna55:

You accusations do matter to some of us.

So far, some see sema as fishing for donations, and some are ready to plan a revolution as they may not be able to participate in entertainment.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
2/11/16 12:58 p.m.

The EPA is NOT un-Constitutional. They are a department of government that answers to the Executive branch and was ratified by both houses of Congress.

Jesus tap dancing Christ enough of this revisionist bullE36 M3. Either run for office, get elected and change it, or shut the berkeley up, but either way stop making up/repeating berkeleying lies from people that don't give a damn about anything else other than making another buck off giving everyone cancer and anything else they find that will be profitable.

BlueInGreen44
BlueInGreen44 Dork
2/11/16 12:58 p.m.

I do not like the EPA.

This has me thinking about what things would look like in a future where we couldn't (or wouldn't want to) modify production cars, whether that happens because of EPA regs, self-driving cars, or whatever. Would we find more creative ways to go low buck racing? Would more companies start developing affordable track-only racecars? Mass produced race car kits? That could be fun.

So what about modifying a production car engine used to power a home built locost style track car? I wonder where would that fall under the proposal.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
2/11/16 1:07 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: Jesus tap dancing Christ enough of this revisionist bullE36 M3. Either run for office, get elected and change it, or shut the berkeley up, but either way stop making up/repeating berkeleying lies from people that don't give a damn about anything else other than making another buck off giving everyone cancer and anything else they find that will be profitable.

It would be one thing if the EPA was saying a race car had to pass a sniffer test but what they are saying is much worse then that.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 1:08 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: The EPA is NOT un-Constitutional. They are a department of government that answers to the Executive branch and was ratified by both houses of Congress.

OK, so they are unconstitutional. There should be a specific amendment clarifying their role and governance. There is not. Just because they allowed to exist does not mean that they are constitutional.

For clarity, again, I am not saying that that should not exist, necessarily, nor am I even saying what I would desire their powers to entail. As they are today, though, they basically run rampant. Answering to the executive branch isn't good enough. If Trump was elected, and got pissed and disbanded the EPA entirely, would that be OK with you because they only answer to the executive branch?

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
2/11/16 1:14 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to tuna55: You accusations do matter to some of us. So far, some see sema as fishing for donations, and some are ready to plan a revolution as they may not be able to participate in entertainment.

The note from Lemons explains things more than SEMA, and I am using that as corroborations.

I don't give money to SEMA nor any other lobbying group at the moment.

I see government overreach and it's the worst form (in my opinion) since it's not based on legislation which can be voted up or down.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UberDork
2/11/16 1:16 p.m.

Jay's lawyer identified a particularly nasty problem that could hit even almost totally stock race cars hard in the safety requirements: The only way you could replace the fuel tank would be with one certified to comply with the stock evaporative emissions rules. So - no fuel cells allowed without finding a way to make them CARB legal.

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