Vehicular Purgatory- Help

Fix Saab.
Install accusump. Also check oil before you track. Sell other 3 cars.

Matt B wrote: Ok, so you want a dd and a track toy and don't want to get rid of the Saab or Porsche. What was the question? (besides best way to fix oiling issues)

I never said I didn't want to get rid of Saab. It fits my needs very well... other than apparently having oiling issues in long sweepers.

I would get rid of it I could fill my needs with another vehicle. Porsche is only untouchable car in the line up right now and it likely wouldn't bring much cash in its current state and is worth more to me than $.

I need a daily driver/winter car/ that can haul stuff/people from time to time. If it could tow home a broken track toy that would be even better. So an early 2000's full size truck with lower miles, maintenance history that is reliable would fit the bill. (If something like that exists...) The sale of the Saab would be used to cover most of this.... Plus with a truck no chance of tracking it. Minus is I dislike sitting so high... (that's what happens when an MR2 is your first car)

That leaves the sale of Talon, and MR2 to cover most of the Track Car.

Miata's, MR2's, 3-Series, 350Z(might be a stretch), S2000... etc. Anything else that could be street driven during summers and would not need a new short block after a day at the track.

And since I'm not replacing short blocks or taking on a full restoration of the MR2 that would free up my spare time to straighten up the Porsche.

Im all very conflicted with this... I originally had little intention of tracking the Saab but the respray on the Talon drug on longer than I wanted to so the plan to buy a track toy got delayed. A little peer pressure from some friends and some desire to get out and drive instead of just working on my heaps and I end up in the position I am now. I thought I had it all planned until I learned my lesson the hard way on tracking your daily driver.

It sounds like your first step is to fix the Saab.

Honestly, it sounds like you're inflating a couple of potential issues with the EJ into a reason to get rid of the car. So fix it and get rid of it. No use justifying a car you don't want.

The track car answer is obviously Miata. Always is.

And you guys are scaring me with these EJ stories. I'm putting the final touches on the re-engine-ing (stock) of my WRX and I don't ever want to have to do this again...

Buy an El Camino and enjoy sitting lower down, bitchin skynyrd 8-tracks and haulin azz!

No, seriously, an Elky would do what you're requesting without all of the truck trade-offs. So would many minivans, station wagons and full size cars. Depends on how much you're hauling, how far and how fast.

Your heart is in the Porsche so that one is untouchable of course. It sounds like you are tired of the Saabaru but I would encourage you to think and then think some more. Its a cliche but the car you have is always cheaper than the car you dont have.

I'm not trying to scare anyone away from Subie motors. Oiling problems are not inevitable. If you have a good oil pan and pickup( I really really like the Killer B), a good oil pump, and make sure there are no oil screens in the banjos then you really wont have any oil problems. Plenty of guys track their Subie but they dont use straight stock motors(for long) without making some changes to the oiling system. It is easy to forget that the Subie is an econobox that is blessed with AWD and a turbo motor.

On the other hand I love the 4g63 but I hate the DSM transmissions. I guess you could say that all cars have their pluses and minuses.

Porsche solved the problem by putting on a gigantic oil sump. With an aftermarket Subaru pan you get another quart of oil. A larger oil filter would give you a bit more capacity but I dont like that option.

I personally have been inspired to get a small formula or b mod car that will be my sole track car. In the long run they can be significantly cheaper than a street car that is used on the track. And I can tow it behind my Saabaru.

turboswede wrote: Buy an El Camino and enjoy sitting lower down, bitchin skynyrd 8-tracks and haulin azz! No, seriously, an Elky would do what you're requesting without all of the truck trade-offs. So would many minivans, station wagons and full size cars. Depends on how much you're hauling, how far and how fast.

Hah they need to bring the El Camino back. that would be pretty cool.

Ojala wrote: Your heart is in the Porsche so that one is untouchable of course. It sounds like you are tired of the Saabaru but I would encourage you to think and then think some more. Its a cliche but the car you have is always cheaper than the car you dont have. I'm not trying to scare anyone away from Subie motors. Oiling problems are not inevitable. If you have a good oil pan and pickup( I really really like the Killer B), a good oil pump, and make sure there are no oil screens in the banjos then you really wont have any oil problems. Plenty of guys track their Subie but they dont use straight stock motors(for long) without making some changes to the oiling system. It is easy to forget that the Subie is an econobox that is blessed with AWD and a turbo motor. On the other hand I love the 4g63 but I hate the DSM transmissions. I guess you could say that all cars have their pluses and minuses. Porsche solved the problem by putting on a gigantic oil sump. With an aftermarket Subaru pan you get another quart of oil. A larger oil filter would give you a bit more capacity but I dont like that option. I personally have been inspired to get a small formula or b mod car that will be my sole track car. In the long run they can be significantly cheaper than a street car that is used on the track. And I can tow it behind my Saabaru.

Good advice. I would still like the Saab if I can be at least 95% sure that after I rebuild it that I won't have any more oil starvation issues. So tips like these sound useful. I wish I could find a tech article that describes or at least has some suggestions backed up by data on what to do help the EJ20 oil starvation. Do you know of any?

I've also previously looked into the Accusump. That seems like good insurance if I ever felt inspired to track it again.

The solution I found to the DSM transmissions was to get a quality/upgrade rebuild done by a reputable shop, Shepard Racing. My Talon shifts better than any DSM I have ever driven and appears to be fairly durable but it really hasn't seen much abuse beyond daily driving.

I have also been inspired by formula cars. I was on the FSAE team in college and I have been struggling to find anything to compares to the driving experience. I may look into that as an option down the road. I've slowly been stock piling fabrication tools so that some day I can build a Locost or some other homebuilt sports car.

ahaidet wrote: Good advice. I would still like the Saab if I can be at least 95% sure that after I rebuild it that I won't have any more oil starvation issues. So tips like these sound useful. I wish I could find a tech article that describes or at least has some suggestions backed up by data on what to do help the EJ20 oil starvation. Do you know of any?

Troll 'built motors' on nasioc. Larry and a few others that actually build motors usually know the actual guts on these motors.

I wish I could tell you that there is a magic bullet to this oil "problem". I hate to call it a problem though just because it really only surfaces when you have sustained high rpm and sweepers on a track. The oil pump puts out a good oil supply to the heads but the heads have trouble returning the oil fast enough when you stress them with high rpm, too tight clearances, too high oil weight, and long sweepers.

Subaru designed the ej to run a long time at cruising rpms with occasional bursts of high rpm. Details like the cross drilled crank, which hampers high rpm oiling, are a strong clue to their intentions.

I dont claim to be an authority so take this FWIW. On my Subie engines I do the following. I dont like cross drilled crankshafts. I use a higher capacity oil pan with GOOD aftermarket pickup (that is not a chopped up stock tube). Good perfectly matched rods cleared to .0020 for street instead of the ridiculous Subaru 0008-.0018. Clean up the oil galleys. Clean up all the supply and return lines Clean up the oil pump passages and make that sucker a perfect little jewel. I use 5w40 and I personally dont like using 20w50 to "protect the bearings" because it doesnt address the real problem. I dont use accusumps personally because they are expensive and I had the bladder in one fail on me which took a large pile of cash out of my bank account. A lot of guys like oil coolers but I dont like adding a cooler just for the purpose of adding more oil volume.

Or you can just use a stock FHI shortblock and let your engine drop below 7000 rpm every once in a while at the track. YMMV

You could put scavenging pumps in the heads.

DILYSI Dave wrote: You could put scavenging pumps in the heads.

Are there current readily made sources for those? Or is that more DIY experimental. Any links?

Some good advice above. I wouldn't be entirely surprise to find out the oil pickup has a crack in it. Make sure that during the rebuild that is examined/addressed.

If you want to sell it broken, pm me a price. Have trailer, willing to travel if the price is right. Though I think you'd be foolish to give it up. The rebuild doesn't have to be big money. Get one of your other cars ready for track duty. Leave the saab for daily driving and the occasional fill in at the track.

ahaidet wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: You could put scavenging pumps in the heads.

Are there current readily made sources for those? Or is that more DIY experimental. Any links?

You might be in experimental territory there. If you could make it work good at high rpm and low rpm without starving the bearings I would be extremely interested. I just try to do as much detail work on the oil system without having to go to a dry sump. Frankly I can rebuild a motor for about the same as a dry sump system so I have never gone that route.

Ojala wrote: I wish I could tell you that there is a magic bullet to this oil "problem". I hate to call it a problem though just because it really only surfaces when you have sustained high rpm and sweepers on a track. The oil pump puts out a good oil supply to the heads but the heads have trouble returning the oil fast enough when you stress them with high rpm, too tight clearances, too high oil weight, and long sweepers.

Other engines with a similar oiling issue (too much oil in the head, starves pan/bottom end) can be fixed by putting a restrictor in the block/head to reduce flow to the head. On Saturns GM made a headgasket revision to do this at some point. Long before that, enthusiasts pressed in their own brass restrictor. Keeps the oil pump from pushing everything up to the head during sustained high RPMs.

A more grassroots solution is to simply overfill the pan by 1qt :)

Regardless, plenty of economical solutions to this issue. Plenty of information regarding it specific to your car on Nasioc as well.

sachilles wrote: Some good advice above. I wouldn't be entirely surprise to find out the oil pickup has a crack in it. Make sure that during the rebuild that is examined/addressed. If you want to sell it broken, pm me a price. Have trailer, willing to travel if the price is right. Though I think you'd be foolish to give it up. The rebuild doesn't have to be big money. Get one of your other cars ready for track duty. Leave the saab for daily driving and the occasional fill in at the track.

I only for a brief minute ever considered selling it broken. Not in my nature. Thats why i have been spending (wasting maybe?) untold hours restoring the Talon to my level of finish before i sell it.

I started tearing the Saab apart last night. I got the intercooler and downpipe off. Tonight I should have more free time and should get most of the other accessories disconected and then hopefully if I an get some help on Thursday actually pull the motor out.

I will need to dig deeper on Naisoc to find what you guys are reffering to for the oiling issue fixes. It is sometimes hard to seperate the wheat from the chafe over there...

Thanks for all the help. At this point I will probably keep the Saab after the rebuild at least for year or so and keep it off track. I am hoping later this fall/winter/spring I can shop for a Track Toy for next year.

Priority #1 is get Saab running again. #2 is Finish details on talon and sell it.

So which would you say is your biggest obstacle, time or money?

Like many of the folks here it seems like you enjoy doing stuff yourself.

I found I had to get realistic with myself and my fleet. I usually suck it up and have a pro repair the daily driver, as I just don't have the time most times. While I'm not close to being rich, I find that my time can be better spent. Some times its just worth it to have someone else pound out a job quickly. It sounds like you have more than enough work on the non DD cars, to keep you busy in the non work hours.

sachilles wrote: So which would you say is your biggest obstacle, time or money? Like many of the folks here it seems like you enjoy doing stuff yourself. I found I had to get realistic with myself and my fleet. I usually suck it up and have a pro repair the daily driver, as I just don't have the time most times. While I'm not close to being rich, I find that my time can be better spent. Some times its just worth it to have someone else pound out a job quickly. It sounds like you have more than enough work on the non DD cars, to keep you busy in the non work hours.

The only non-DD car that I have been working on is the Talon. In an attempt to get it ready for sale. The sale price of the Talon is small compared to what I would have to pay to have someone else do the Saab for. So the Talon gets pushed to the back burner again (maybe side burner as every engine rebuild I have done has a lot of down time waiting for parts and machining) while I focus my efforts on the Saab.

With any luck I will have both done by my birthday (late September). Little birthday present for myself.

I have had to get realistic with my projects in general. From house projects,to friends, family and my own car projects I live in state of being perpetually buried. I have gotten smart and turned some friends down and occasionally family if its something that can be done reasonably somewhere else. I really have to be careful and avoid the "that seems kinda expensive for what it is... I bet I can make it cheaper/better" trap...I have really improved on this from where I was before.

Case in point: My wife decided we needed to redmodel the bathroom a few weeks before I blew my motor. I finally agreed. Luckily my father-in-law is a carpenter and will be helping/doing a majority of the work for us/me. We even will be paying to get some of it done as well.

Luckliy I am farily young and have yet to feel an ill effects of working in garage till 1230 every night.

I guess I never answered your question.

I try and weigh whichever route is cheaper whether that be time or money wise.

Fix up the Saab and use it as a DD.

Then either sell the Talon and fix up the MR2 for use as a track toy, or sell the MR2 cheap to someone who will fix it up and use the Talon as a track toy (probably the easiest option, but not the most profitable).

sachilles wrote: So which would you say is your biggest obstacle, time or money? Like many of the folks here it seems like you enjoy doing stuff yourself. I found I had to get realistic with myself and my fleet. I usually suck it up and have a pro repair the daily driver, as I just don't have the time most times. While I'm not close to being rich, I find that my time can be better spent. Some times its just worth it to have someone else pound out a job quickly. It sounds like you have more than enough work on the non DD cars, to keep you busy in the non work hours.

This is good advice, I've recently farmed out several jobs on the DDs because I knew they'd never get done if it was up to me and my schedule. I once had a set of rotors/pads for our Odyssey that took about a year for me to get a day to install them. Saved over $300 over the dealer or indy cost, but thankfully the brake situation wasn't critical and it wasn't a huge deal that we had to wait. Now I have a set of rotors/pads for the rear ready to go on, hopefully history doesn't repeat itself!

With 3 kids, time is definitely my biggest obstacle, although I'd rank money as a close second (see the part about 3 kids).

I enjoy working on cars, but there are times when it's smarter to have someone else do the work.

You and I seem to be in the same boat.

I've finally realized that just because I can do something for myself, doesn't always mean I should. It can be a real money saver to do stuff yourself. The trick is figuring out when it's false economy.

Oh and a bathroom remodel. You have my sympathy on that one. Been there and done that. I'm happy with the result, but it took me too long. At least for me, house projects end up taking 2x as much time as I think they might.

GameboyRMH wrote: Fix up the Saab and use it as a DD. Then either sell the Talon and fix up the MR2 for use as a track toy, or sell the MR2 cheap to someone who will fix it up and use the Talon as a track toy (probably the easiest option, but not the most profitable).

I've thought of using the Talon as a track car. It would need new Struts/Springs maybe a sway bar or two... Power isn't a problem on these cars. The Shepherd Transmission in mine should be fairly durable at the modest power levels it currently makes. It likely would need beefed up LSD diffs as well.

They are very nose heavy cars (60/40) if I remember right. Torque split is 50/50. Which overall tends to make for a car that tends to understeer no matter how you tweak the suspension.

When I built the Talon(originally in college I bought it in pieces with a blown motor) my goal for it was a daily driver but I had dreams of turning it into an all around super car beater ala:

http://dsmporn.com/magazines/overboost/story.htm

But my interests have changed. Even with all those mods on that car I wonder about the reliability of it. The cost of Scot Grays car has to be pushing $20,000 with all the mods.

When I built it I also was trying to find a car that I could enjoy year round instead of the MR2 which was death trap in a winter snow storm. (Low polar moment of inertia in a very light car with crappy all season tires = scary on back roads in snow) I built the Talon drove it year round and loved it. Then I went back to driving the MR2 in the summer. Despite being down nearly 100hp+ on the Talon it was/is still a blast to drive. Something about a lightweight rear wheel drive mid engine car is just perfect. Then I got deeply involved in FSAE at school and loved the feel of a 14K RPM redline sport bike motor powering a 400lb open wheel car and suddenly nothing felt fast anymore...

Fast forward a few years. I graduated school, am engaged, have a full time engineering job and the Talon is starting to have some reliability issues (annoying things -nothing major), I need a more reliable daily driver and had always thought WRX's were neat. 92x shows up in my price range even nicer version of the WRX with the right aftermarket parts and it was a done deal.

Talon sits, I debate on selling it. But the engine, transmission, mechanicals don't match the body. Driving it to college daily for a few years I wasn't too concerned with how it looked when it sat in parking decks 90% of the time. But now selling a car that had oxidized paint(Black cherry that now looks purple) and some small rust spots really is taking away from the value of the whole package. I had most of the tools to do the body work and was looking for some practice so I took the opportunity to restore it. If I was smart I would have just parted it out... but I never had the heart to do that and it felt like unfinished business. I wanted to be proud of the car that I brought back from the dead many years before not tear it back down. So I replaced and patched the rusty parts and painted it and that’s as far as I got.

Since the Saab took over as the Daily Driven AWD sporty car, that can haul more, is more reliable, and overall more refined and not particulalry loving the handling of the Talon. I thought it would be fun to turn the MR2 into a track car maybe an MK1.5 swap (Turbo 2nd gen motor in an MK1 MR2) But the body is way to rusty and I'm not so sure I wanted to mess around with that as a track car, too much work etc. especially with all the other projects I have.

So for my track car I am looking for something RWD and reliable with a litlle bit of power. Talon doesnt fit that....as fun as Scot Grays car sounds.

"So for my track car I am looking for something RWD and reliable with a litlle bit of power."

Do I even need to tell you what is always the answer.....

Ojala wrote: "So for my track car I am looking for something RWD and reliable with a litlle bit of power." Do I even need to tell you what is always the answer.....

Well it would be a Miata... but it doesnt have what I would consider a little bit of power.. stock that is... So a Turbo/Supercharged Miata?

But the next step is... are the reliable when boosted?

I vote fix the saab and keep it as a dd only. This way you don't have to "fix" the oiling issues. I would use the Tallon as a fun AC/track toy. The 924 should be fixed enjoyed and passed on to kids etc.

I learned a long time ago not to take DDs to the track. That is unless you want to get a new DD.

Pulled the motor last night.

Hope to tear it down this weekend and determine the full extent of the damage.