What Happened to Steering Feel?

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Yeah, "immovable object" wasn't the right phrasing. But Pete's observation about the EPAS motor actively fighting any steering angle change that doesn't come from the driver turning the wheel is what I was getting at. I've experienced the "video game steering" in some cars but never thought that deeply about why it felt that way. Now it makes sense.

As someone who's right on the verge of implementing a column-mounted EPAS in a project that I hope will be fun to drive when I'm done, this is really giving me second thoughts.

A lot of people in this thread are pointing at the location of the EPAS motor in the system as the key to whether it robs steering feel or not. I don't get why--it seems to me that the difference between the two locations is just a mechanical linkage. Is there something else I'm missing about why the EPAS motor location matters for feel?

One factor that stands out to me is amount of drag in the steering system relative to effort required to turn the tires. 

Comparing my Jeep and E38, they both have steering boxes.  The E38 setup is basically identical to Keith's M5.  The E38 has much better steering feel.  And if you lift the front end of each car off the ground and turn the wheel with the engine off, the Jeep steering has far more drag than the BMW steering.  So a larger portion of your steering effort goes into overcoming drag vs turning the tires, making it harder to tell when the effort to turn the tires changes.  When you switch from the snow tires to the wider, stickier, stiffer summer tires (same approximate overall diameter and sidewall height) on the BMW, the steering feel improves noticeably, as the effort to turn the tires goes up (the steering does get heavier), but the drag in the steering system is un-changed. 

The way the assist is valved in the steering boxes may be part of it as well.  The Jeep box has a heavier than stock torsion bar in it which increases steering effort and feel.  And with that, the steering is certainly quite heavy, but it still doesn't have great feel (it's not the worst I've seen though). 

One peculiarity of EPAS is that the motor acts like a generator when being driven by what would otherwise be feedback. This is directly analogous to a damper, and suppliers *do* try to tune this out because they want to then add damping in actively. Passive sources make tuning hard, since they can't be tweaked by just plugging in a laptop and changes some 1s and 0s. Then there's the mass of the gears and armature that have to spin up and dull sudden inputs. Even if the application engineer doesn't want a sporty, non-PS type of feel, they want all the feel to be defined on their own terms. 

The other issue is confusing feel and effort. The Focus RS is a great example. The sport button adds effort, but I felt absolutely no feedback in any setting. 

Interestingly, I think the best feeling EPAS are the cheapest column based ones in economy cars.  Who knows.

It is certainly more swappable. 

I dunno... I feel like there's information in the... well, at least the N and V of NVH coming from the contact patches. And it feels like part of the experience whether or not it helps you feel for the limit, and is there when you're not feeling for the limit. It's part of the tactile experience of driving.

Remember also that when feeling for that limit, as the slip angle grows the working contact patch's lever on the steering effectively gets shorter as the trailing edge breaks away more and more, so peak turning force is likely to be on the far side of peak steering wheel force and somewhere into where it's started to go light. Where in that continuum the peak is will be detected in part by feeling for cornering force and balance, but perhaps there's some info there in what the vibes from the tires feel like.

We've seen enough people get out of sims and into cars and go fast, or go fast in cars with numb steering to know that nuanced feel isn't a total prerequisite to speed, but I also think it gets written off too readily, either as a meaningful driving tool or just as a meaningful part of the experience of driving.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

It is interesting that you mention sims, as I recently found myself driving an SN197 (or whatever that chassis is called) and felt that I had much better steering feel in some sims than real life.  Even NFS:Porsche Unleashed felt more realistic than the Mustang...

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

I think you're probably right.  I'm a mid-pack racer who drives like a gorilla, so there's probably more information there than I'm getting at this point.  I'm not sure where on the steering force curve where the maximum grip level is, but your description sounds right to me.  I've learned to stop turning when the steering starts getting light.  Further input just results in understeer and rubber in my face.  If I need more at that point, I probably screwed up and shifting weight is the only answer.

It's fascinating to me that sim racers spend thousands of dollars on steering wheels--and apparently they get a lot of information out of it.  Information that I don't, but should probably learn.  I have a heck of a time driving a sim because I rely on my butt.

Most of the sports cars I've owned had manual racks, didn't even have hydraulic power steering.  So I keep hearing about how modern cars don't have steering feel, but I'm not sure I totally agree.  First of all, in most cars a simple alignment can change the whole game with regard to steering feel.  Most new road cars are designed for daily driving and family hauler duty, and they don't have ANY feel- designed to just feel as numb and easy as possible.  But as far as modern sports cars... all the Porsche weenies complained about the electric steering in the 981/991, but I thought it was pretty great.  Even compared to the 987/997.  In Miata world, I've owned an NA with factory manual rack and another NA with a depowered rack, and I think the steering in my new ND is really really good.  I would choose it over any Miata steering that came before it.

I guess I don't think that electric power steering is inherently bad, I just think it's not well implemented at times.  For those who care about steering feel, I think it can be as good or better than hydraulic.

Berck said:

Keith Tanner said:

My original 1990 Miata has the most beautiful steering feel of any car I think I've ever driven. And I don't know why that car stands out even amongst other 1990 Miatas. Something with the alignment, I'm guessing. Someday I'm going to dissect it and find out why.

Fascinating, given the number you've driven.  I seem to remember that you had 16" wheels, which have since fallen out of favor in the Miata world.  Think that had anything to do with it?  Power steering or manual rack?  I'd never driven a manual rack Miata until I bought a beat up 1990 as a track car recently, and I'm shocked at how much I love the manual rack.  It gets a bad rep for the slow steering ratio, but I think Mazda got it just right.

It's a power rack car, should be a mechanical twin to my other Canadian 1990 when new. I was running 16s (still have them on the car but the tires are dead) but I don't think that's it because I've run my other 1990 Miatas with anything from 14" to 17" and they were running fairly soft sidewalls.

I currently have 2 Fords, a 2013 Fusion and a 2006 Mustang V6.  The Mustang has hydraulic powered steering while the Fusion is electric.

Even though the Mustang has quite low miles (so the suspension shouldn't be all that worn) for most driving I prefer the Fusion.  Maybe the V8 Mustang has a better steering system?  And after driving a 2015 Avalon, I concluded that most car mags were correct in their assessment of the steering feel in Toyotas...it's not that great.   So I drove the Fusion (well, actually a Fiesta first) and decided Ford does steering better.

Supposedly, among " regular " priced cars, Volkswagen sets the standard for steering feel in electrically assistance units.

BTW, I am old enough to have driven or owned cars from the 50s on up through 2015.  If you want to experience really awful steering feel, drive a 60s Chrysler product. 

In reply to Carsandbikes :

There would have to be some feel for there to be something to call awful!

Chryslers did set a bar for steering.  Overassisted, numb, AND usually very sloppy.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Depends on the Chrysler.  I had a 67 Imperial that was as you said- completely devoid of any steering feel whatsoever.  It was a 5000 pound cruiser.  But, my 63 dart convertible with power steering was better.  Not "great", but you could at least feel that there was something going on at the other end of the steering shaft, other than it being immersed in a bucket of goo.