Stock Saturns are pretty competitive around here. Safe, cheap insurance, easy to work on, lots in the self-serve junkyards. I even have one I can donate to you as a project, though I wouldn't recommend the color (not my new one above.)
Stock Saturns are pretty competitive around here. Safe, cheap insurance, easy to work on, lots in the self-serve junkyards. I even have one I can donate to you as a project, though I wouldn't recommend the color (not my new one above.)
A very few cheap/reliable cars that come to mind while hitting your current criteria: 2002-2004 ford focus SVT and 90's Dodge Neon ACR
some other food for thought: 16-18 year old car enthusiasts tend to be more tolerant of harsh rides, noisy exhausts and generally quirky issues than the average person so while its probably important from a parental standpoint to get him into something a bit newer and more reliable there are lots of other "funner" options like: BMW e30 (added bonus, multiple under 20's in the furrin group race these so he has folks around his age to compete/compare to) 2nd gen toyota supra non-turbo (still plenty sporty, can be made to handle great not as fast/beat on as turbo variants) miata with a hardtop (I know its not the answer but with dedicated snow tires and some additional rust proofing they're actually quite fun in the snow)
just my .02
duratec zx3, BG chassis mazda, or maybe protégé 5, Accent, 240 (rwd but with snow tires is all sorts of fun and capable in the snow), same goes with an E30.
In response to pinchvalve, I've owned wranglers, I love wranglers, and while everything you say about them is true, I would never put a 16 year old in one on the road. The short wheelbase and high center of gravity makes them very unstable. They roll way to easy. Swerve to miss one of those michigan deers and things can go really bad really fast.
What about a last gen Celica? Or something along the lines of SVT Focus, Focus ST (not the new turbo one), Ion Redline, or Cobalt SS? I think the RSX's seem over priced, but the early 2000's Civic Si appear to be quite a bit more reasonable.
P71? E30? N/A Subaru with a stick?
Get him a dog.
I'm kind of serious.
I've had a lot of disappointment trying to have a father/son car project. First effort- 14 years ago when my oldest was also 12. Continued until now with 2 other sons.
The problems can be summarized pretty simply:
1- Kids these days have an attention span that lasts less than 2.2 nanoseconds. This is not an ADHD problem- ALL kids have it, because ALL kids have the internet and access to vast information. It is pretty tough to stay on track with all that cool stuff out there.
2- Trying to interest them in something I thought was interesting/ cool/ fun was a big mistake.
Project cars take TIME. Short attention spans are an anathema to project cars.
So, I was never able to keep their attention long enough to be worthwhile, and they weren't passionate about it in the first place.
My suggestions:
1- Don't do it until he is REALLY excited about it. Don't try to sell him on anything. Begging is good. Until that, let him play X-box.
2- Focus on tuning. I'm not too good with a computer for tuning, but this is an area kids can seriously excel at. That means, no carburetors, no OBD1, but it also means no modern over-the-top electronics that can't be divorced from the OEM controls. Look for something DIY Autotune offers a plug-and-play module for, and has great internet support.
3- Bite-sized-chunks. Ideally, anything you do to the car should be able to be completed in 1 weekend, in time to put back on the road Monday morning. Frame-off restorations, engine swaps, etc. are a big no-no.
I think you should look hard at Subaru. There's a lot of Lego-like swap-ability to them, AWD is easy, and slow is good, but very fast is also possible.
The dog teaches patience, and the value of cleaning up E36 M3. 
Tough one!
Years ago I'd have said get him a Sprite/Midget. But there aren't many around and you threw in winter driving. That also lets out things like Lotus 7 clones.
For something modern, weather proof, cheap and with decent handling, I am forced to say that either a Mazda 3 (same chassis as Ford Focus and Volvo S40) or a Subaru would be the way to go. Both would give cheap reliable fun and the handling is good enough to respond to improvement in his driving ability and to modest modification.
"I learned to winter drive on a 74 Camaro, after all"
Have you completely ruled that one out? Some good snow hazard tires all around would work for most Winter conditions. I'm sure that you only had studded snows from your local Sears on your ride. Easy repairs, simple to replace body panels if needed, everything available on the internet or through catalogs, sharp classic to keep up with the Joneses at school, and appreciating every day of his stewardship.
Plus you already know them in and out.
Sounds like a nice "family legacy" kinda choice.
Everything SVReX said, especially the Subaru part.
fun stuff to think about (my first is due in october)!
Here's where my thinking would go:
I do also really like the idea of 'small chunks'. Not driving a car sucks the fun right out of it for a teenager (ask me how I know).
Appreciate the input here.
Matt H. - thanks for the offer, but he's pretty much dead set against Saturns. I haven't ruled them out, since the only box they don't really tick is the "style points" box, which is least important to me (but, perhaps more important to him) If he changes his mind, I'd probably just let him have my SL to fiddle with. Its in pretty decent overall shape, so what money he had to spend could be put into whatever "go fast" bits are available for a single cam Saturn. (I also suspect the "no Saturns" rule may go by the wayside if walking it the other option) If decides he wants a 2 door, I'll give you a shout and see if you still have it.
SVReX - I hear you. I guess I'm sort of using the necessity that he save for 2 years as a benchmark for how interested he really is. In short, if he has no money in a couple of years, he will have no project/fun car.
Right now, the N/A Subie option is looking most promising. I might even be able to talk the Mrs. into it, because it really wouldn't hurt to have an AWD vehicle in the family garage. I suppose that would also open up Rallycross as a motorsports option. Unfortunately, around here, Subies are afflicted by the same wheel well rot that knocks so many Honda hatches out of consideration.
DaewooOfDeath wrote: Old RWD Toyotas are sent from God to help young drivers get good. They're slow stock, easy to upgrade and have handling from Jesus. Approximately 9,000,000 times cooler than anything at his future highschool.
Ya in high school even if I had a clean old toyota like thsi in 2000 when I got my license it would be cool.
If he's going to have a project car get him an inexpensive classic like one of these.
I'll suggest this:
It wouldn't be overly fast for a new driver, it would be cool, and it would be worth it as a project.
Don't get him a saturn wagon or anything like that. Get him something desirable.
mad_machine wrote:JohnRW1621 wrote: Do kids really want cars that are from before the beginning of time? What I mean is the beginning of their time. If Jr was born in 2002 would he really be interested in cars of the '80's/'90's or would these be seen as "cars from another era"; the era before himself?for what it is worth.. my first car was older than I was.
My friend in high school had one of these:
And it was awesome. Car was about 2 years older than him.
kazoospec wrote: Its in pretty decent overall shape, so what money he had to spend could be put into whatever "go fast" bits are available for a single cam Saturn.
IF you go this route (I don't consider them competitive), I'd suggest selling and getting a twin cam. Or you can teach him to swap the engine, transmission, ecu, rear subframe, etc. yourself. There are a lot of differences between the two. Most chassis stuff is the same, but its the DOHC heads are an order of magnitude better to begin with and take modifications much better.
On the plus side, no body rust.
Subarus are good, and pretty easy to work on. I am 30 and insurance on a focus is still very expensive (like a 125% increase over my 300sd, almost $300 a year more than the jaguar xjr and Infiniti m45 I had also asked about, etc) so that might be something to check before adding that one to the list.
If his taste is all over the place maybe look towards a pseudo muscle car.
A mid 80s Regal, Cutlass, or Monte Carlo (bonus for SS) could be a cool ride.
Nice sounds, cool burnouts, classic muscle car styling (without the premium)and feels faster than it is.
They are simple to work on, plenty of aftermarket support for engine and trans, and has a full frame and plenty of tire and wheel choices. They may also share suspension with better handling GM offerings.
By the way, everybody saying to get a truck or, even worse, a Jeep, those things have atrocious rates of drivers ending up dead. If safety is a concern at all, the only things statistically worse than small trucks and Jeeps are V8 Camaros. Corvettes are better. So are Eclipses and the like.
Best are midsize sedans.
Ignoring that a Subaru is the top (and quite logical) choice at the moment...
You've brought up a number of RWD cars as possibilities, but the Miata is ruled out due to snow. Having lived in the snow belt all of my life (granted, us on the east side of the state don't nearly have the snow as the west), and spent 17 winters driving a Miata, I found it to be an amazing snow car.
Getting taller than normal snow tires is really easy for this car, and I've driven a lot with the snow grinding against the bottom of the car. Never once got stuck.
So for a really great, low powered RWD sports car that is simple- 1.6l Miata would always be my choice.
(and IF that is a real option, I have snow tires + hard top that I need to sell- my Miata has been offically retired from daily driving work.)
Anyway, someone needed to give an honest nod to 'the answer'.
kazoospec wrote: Unfortunately, around here, Subies are afflicted by the same wheel well rot that knocks so many Honda hatches out of consideration.
Umm, OK, but you already said this:
kazoospec wrote: I've got no problem traveling south to get a rust free example...
I'm not sayin, I'm just saying...
I'm going to mention it again, because its worth repeating. STC Civic/STS CRX. You can buy one in that price range that is practically a new car (rebuilt motor, trans, new components all over the place), capable of dominating locally and winning nationally with no work needed.
Just do that.
alfadriver wrote: Having lived in the snow belt all of my life (granted, us on the east side of the state don't nearly have the snow as the west), and spent 17 winters driving a Miata, I found it to be an amazing snow car. Getting taller than normal snow tires is really easy for this car, and I've driven a lot with the snow grinding against the bottom of the car. Never once got stuck.
A Miata on snow tires is probably one of the most underrated winter cars.
In reply to SVreX:
The problem with Subie rust issues is that I still have to bring it back here, into the frozen, salted, great white north. Sadly, the same applies to Civic hatches/CRX's. "Up here", the wheel arches on both makes rarely last more than 7 or 8 years from brand new. 
First cars should be soulless penalty boxes so they learn to appreciate better cars. The should also require zero maintenance time from you. In a couple of years, with your budget, you should be looking for a Mirage, Versa, Rio, Yaris, Aveo, or Dart as new as you can find.
Also, if the kid only has $3k saved up after a couple of years that's probably not enough monthly to cover fuel, maintenance, and insurance. You may be limited to much less expensive cars if he's not working.
Mine turned 13 this year and has been karting since he was 6. So, I've been anticipating the "first car" discussion. My first car was two years older than me, so that would put him in a '99 or newer car.
Right now, he's gone through a few options (other than a 911 he keeps bringing up). An early MINI, my Fiat 500t, or an Audi TT ("a classic one dad, not a new one"). However, his latest idea is a 3/4 or 1-ton truck, a trailer and a "needs work" Forumla Vee. Plus he could tow the kart trailer with the truck , too.
An old race car and truck to tow it would be a smidge out of the budget, but gets you cheap insurance (with the truck) and still feeds the racing itch without a dual duty car that will have higher premiums.
Plus, trucks are dead simple to learn on.
-Rob
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