Which Miata engine swap?

Have you seen the last few videos from Keith? The noises in the videos have some kind of hypnotic effect and it makes the brain just repeat "I want that. I need that."

I have no issue running 3" exhaust past the Getrag.

Keith Tanner wrote: Cars you can drive are more fun than cars you can't.

This. Junkyard motor.

Maybe drop in some forged parts to up the reliability and/or do a light refresh.

Leafy wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote:

Leafy wrote:

unk577 wrote: I second the V8 option. Before you decide find a quality LS swap to take for a rest drive/ride. So much fun I'm gonna build a DD LS car next year

I would love to build a DD LS swapped miata. 5.3 aluminum truck motor, Upgraded T5 with LS adpater plate, PPF adapter, 3.63 miata ring gear with an MSM lsd and msm axles. Way cheaper and lighter than all the other swap, and I dont really feel the need for the ability to put down more than 400+ ftlbs.

FYI, the L33 is noticeably weedier than an LS1 on the street, and the T5 shifter location doesn't play well with an interior. I wouldn't build that car, and I've owned parts of it Still have the damn T5 shifter hole in the tunnel. I'm not convinced it would end up as light or as cheap as you think it will. It would save about 75 lbs.

T5z should have the correct shifter placement. Price probably would come out in a wash or only $500 ahead depending on built I'd want the T5 to be. But on the up side, the diff would be easier to route exhausts around, and the LSD options are better.

But you don't need different LSD options with the Getrag Off the shelf, it's as good as a Giken in my opinion. I don't think exhaust clearance is an issue, my main concern with the Miata rear end is strength and the ability of the Torsen to put down power. Given that you can buy a brand new, bombproof clutch pack Getrag for the price of a 100,000 mile Torsen, it's kinda simple. But yeah, if you're looking to save money, that's a decent way to try it. Although by the time you've put in that 3.6, you're starting to eat into your savings again. At least you don't have to pay for halfshafts.

And yes, weedier. My MGB with the mild LS1 felt faster than my L33-powered race car on the street. Some of that was cam, some of that was an extra 400cc. Torques are what you want for street use. The new engine is a different matter.

Just never heard weedier before.

Seedier, I'm very familiar with, from bad dates With crazy women I've seen needier, but never heard weedier.

Sorry, I am not responsible for your lack of education

weedy: informal
(of a person) thin and physically weak in appearance.

Looks like usage peaked around WW II, it's something Captain America might have said.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

See I would have thought it would have been more like this

Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead

You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

The swap for an NA that has me intrigued at the moment would be the 2.0 liter turbo motor from a Ford Focus ST. I have not measured anything yet. But a recent look under the hood of an ST Focus revealed an engine with a throttle body that points down, rather than toward the flywheel like the MazdaSpeed 3 motor, and a cylinder head where the appendages at the flywheel end don't stick out nearly as far as they do on other direct infection FWD motors. The fact that Ford racing will sell you an ECU and wiring harness that will work as a stand alone makes it even interesting to me.

V8 swaps are nice. But I am looking for 400 plus horse power in my Miata.

Type Q wrote: The swap for an NA that has me intrigued at the moment would be the 2.0 liter turbo motor from a Ford Focus ST. I have not measured anything yet. But a recent look under the hood of an ST Focus revealed an engine with a throttle body that points down, rather than toward the flywheel like the MazdaSpeed 3 motor, and a cylinder head where the appendages at the flywheel end don't stick out nearly as far as they do on other direct infection FWD motors. The fact that Ford racing will sell you an ECU and wiring harness that will work as a stand alone makes it even interesting to me. V8 swaps are nice. But I am looking for 400 plus horse power in my Miata.

Have you seen the dyno from the 2.3 EB mustang? Over 400ftlbs on the bone stock setup with a tune.

In reply to Leafy:

No. I am sure it's impressive. Since the OP is on a budget and I will be too if I ever attempt a swap like this, I was looking at an engine that has been in production for a couple of years and used thousands of cars. There have have a lot of good ones in junkyards.

icaneat50eggs wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: See I would have thought it would have been more like this Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

You're the only one using that definition, mine's from a dictionary I'm Canadian, so I'm educated

I don't see the value in an engine swap that's basically a variation on what the car came with. If you're going to go to that trouble, it should be well worth it. A 2.0 turbo isn't that far off a 1.8 turbo, which is a whole lot easier to arrange. A V6 would be a more interesting way to make the same power.

Keith Tanner wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: See I would have thought it would have been more like this Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

You're the only one using that definition, mine's from a dictionary I'm Canadian, so I'm educated I don't see the value in an engine swap that's basically a variation on what the car came with. If you're going to go to that trouble, it should be well worth it. A 2.0 turbo isn't that far off a 1.8 turbo, which is a whole lot easier to arrange. A V6 would be a more interesting way to make the same power.

More efficient and better 2.0 turbo though. I do agree the V6 swap could be interesting. The 2011+ mustang v6 is technically a madza engine since its more or less the same thing that comes in the CX9 and already has a tranny behind it. That could be real interesting.

I read somewhere on the interwebz about a guy who swapped a VR6 into a miata. I want to largely for the sound. And 300hp in a 2200 lb car should shuffle along respectably.

And VR6 packaging should be easier to shoehorn inot a small engine bay than a V6 or V8 with their exhausts on both sides of the motor.

Keith Tanner wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: See I would have thought it would have been more like this Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

You're the only one using that definition, mine's from a dictionary I'm Canadian, so I'm educated I don't see the value in an engine swap that's basically a variation on what the car came with. If you're going to go to that trouble, it should be well worth it. A 2.0 turbo isn't that far off a 1.8 turbo, which is a whole lot easier to arrange. A V6 would be a more interesting way to make the same power.

Strictly defending the FE3 swap, the value to some is mostly that it'll laugh at power levels that will break a BP in half, and at its core, is a pretty simple swap.

Sure, you could build a BP to make the power, but it'll still be smaller, and you're pulling a motor either way. Do you want to spend a couple grand or more on a built 1.8 to shatter your 6spd transmission? Or do you want to throw a gasket set, water pump, and oil pump at your $200 2.0 junkyard motor that will just as easily shatter your 6spd transmission?

I honestly don't know which i would do, just throwing a counterpoint out there.

Now... the SR20 swaps that some dudes seem to like? I have no idea why that's smart.

Option 2b: Put the 13b in the back like Randy Zimmer's super duper rallyx Miata.

Swank Force One wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: See I would have thought it would have been more like this Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

You're the only one using that definition, mine's from a dictionary I'm Canadian, so I'm educated I don't see the value in an engine swap that's basically a variation on what the car came with. If you're going to go to that trouble, it should be well worth it. A 2.0 turbo isn't that far off a 1.8 turbo, which is a whole lot easier to arrange. A V6 would be a more interesting way to make the same power.

Strictly defending the FE3 swap, the value to some is mostly that it'll laugh at power levels that will break a BP in half, and at its core, is a pretty simple swap. Sure, you could build a BP to make the power, but it'll still be smaller, and you're pulling a motor either way. Do you want to spend a couple grand or more on a built 1.8 to shatter your 6spd transmission? Or do you want to throw a gasket set, water pump, and oil pump at your $200 2.0 junkyard motor that will just as easily shatter your 6spd transmission? I honestly don't know which i would do, just throwing a counterpoint out there. Now... the SR20 swaps that some dudes seem to like? I have no idea why that's smart.

An easy swap like the FE3 (which I've never been convinced is as easy as the internets claim, but I'm too aware of that last 10%) makes sense, as the effort/reward ratio is good. Same goes for a 2.0 Ecoboost into an NC, as it looks as if it'll bolt up to the trans and all you have to do is deal with packaging of stuff like high pressure fuel pumps. But a totally unrelated engine? If you're going to do that, make it worth your while.

Keith Tanner wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: See I would have thought it would have been more like this Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

You're the only one using that definition, mine's from a dictionary I'm Canadian, so I'm educated I don't see the value in an engine swap that's basically a variation on what the car came with. If you're going to go to that trouble, it should be well worth it. A 2.0 turbo isn't that far off a 1.8 turbo, which is a whole lot easier to arrange. A V6 would be a more interesting way to make the same power.

Strictly defending the FE3 swap, the value to some is mostly that it'll laugh at power levels that will break a BP in half, and at its core, is a pretty simple swap. Sure, you could build a BP to make the power, but it'll still be smaller, and you're pulling a motor either way. Do you want to spend a couple grand or more on a built 1.8 to shatter your 6spd transmission? Or do you want to throw a gasket set, water pump, and oil pump at your $200 2.0 junkyard motor that will just as easily shatter your 6spd transmission? I honestly don't know which i would do, just throwing a counterpoint out there. Now... the SR20 swaps that some dudes seem to like? I have no idea why that's smart.

An easy swap like the FE3 (which I've never been convinced is as easy as the internets claim, but I'm too aware of that last 10%) makes sense, as the effort/reward ratio is good. Same goes for a 2.0 Ecoboost into an NC, as it looks as if it'll bolt up to the trans and all you have to do is deal with packaging of stuff like high pressure fuel pumps. But a totally unrelated engine? If you're going to do that, make it worth your while.

100% agree.

Sr20 draws my ire every time i hear about it. "Oh, so you want to take out a mediocre motor, and put in.... a medicore motor? Sounds awesome."

Of course, i'm a hypocrite because i'm still going forward with the F2T swap. Worse motor in many ways. Don't care, i'm stupid enough to do it.

VR6

http://www.tampabaymiatas.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13439&p=143365&hilit=Vr6#p143365

It's 15 minutes away from me and I have yet to see it.

The problem with the 13B is that it's a tall engine. Rather, the crank centerline is pretty high up relative to how low you can get the engine, so the trans will sit up really high. Given the strippedness of your car, it probably wouldn't be that much of a PITA at this point to move the trans tunnel up 2-3 inches at the firewall. If it's even necessary.

Some people have swapped rotaries into Miata and they get rid of the PPF, which makes no sense to me. You can modify the Miata input shaft to be the correct length for a rotary front case half, or you can put the Miata tailhousing/shift tower on an RX-7 trans. First option has best gearing/strength but second option is the easy way.

As I mentioned, what you really want are my Turbo II end housings. One of them is already bridge ported. If you went with the stock manifold I would not do a full bridge, leave the center ports unbridged. If you went with a Holley manifold and throttle body (much more $$$) then you can have an engine like what I've got now. I estimate I was on 215hp with the half bridge TII engine and I'm on about 240hp now with the full bridge motor. Either port will need different apex seals because you won't be able to use the OE 3-piece ones.

Either way, the expensive bit is going to be the exhaust. When my car got painfully loud at Nationals, that was with ONE of the mufflers off, it still had two in the system...

I know about the Miata input shaft modification but Miata bellhousing won't bolt up will it?

Edit: Read too fast, I see what you are saying now.

Miata belt won't bolt to 13B, no.

Keith Tanner wrote:

icaneat50eggs wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: See I would have thought it would have been more like this Weedy: informal (Of a person) overweight and grungy in appearance, often with bloodshot eyes and lack of personnel grooming, and exhibiting other signs calmly associated with the recreational use of cannabis. See also: pothead You are in Colorado, so hats where I went when you said weedy

You're the only one using that definition, mine's from a dictionary I'm Canadian, so I'm educated I don't see the value in an engine swap that's basically a variation on what the car came with. If you're going to go to that trouble, it should be well worth it. A 2.0 turbo isn't that far off a 1.8 turbo, which is a whole lot easier to arrange. A V6 would be a more interesting way to make the same power.

I see your point if a 1.8 turbo is going to have OEM reliability and will pass smog in California. My impression is that 250hp from an NA or NB motor is the upper limit of what is remotely reliable. I know you and your colleagues at FM have a done a ton of development into your turbo systems. I appreciate that. However, you don't have the budget for the hundreds of hours that people like Alfadriver put into OEM tuning and reliability testing. I am assuming that why FM moved into the engine swapping business for client that wanted more.

I have thought a lot about v6 swaps too. I am watching with interest as details about Honda and GM kits come out.

250 hp is the reliable limit on an unmodified engine. You can go well beyond that if you build the internals. We have customers who are running 400 hp reliably. But they're doing it with mechanical empathy, not trying to set a lap record every time they fire the car up. That's what happens when you get into those levels of specific output, well beyond what any manufacturer can provide - the driver has to pay attention and care for the vehicle. The guys who are constantly hammering on track cars and breaking the most amazing things (the alternator tensioner comes to mind as an example) need cars that are very, very conservatively tuned. If you're not running on the track with the psychotic SoCal crowd, then you can make a car last a lot better and is possible to have 400 hp that's more than remotely reliable. Oh, you'll have to spend some money to do it - 400 hp out of a 1.8 is not really any less expensive than 400 hp out of a big V8 if you do it right.

We may not have the budget for hundreds of man hours up front, but we have one big advantage that Alfadriver doesn't: constant feedback and development. When the 2015 Focus is done, it's done. In four years, there won't be a single part still being used as the engineers keep chasing moving targets for price, emissions, efficiency and the number of features that can be stuffed into a dashboard. Meanwhile, we have hundreds of people driving our turbo kits and talking to us. If, over those millions of miles, a part is proven to be insufficient, we alter it. Our current turbo kits are the result of over 20 years of experience in turbocharging the same engine, with feedback from every single customer that's had any sort of difficulty from installation problems to durability questions. There's a lot to be said for that.

We got into the engine swap business because it was a different approach and the market responded. Yes, it is nice to have under stressed drivetrain components and the availability of warranted crate engines for the price is amazing. But we still have lots of turbo customers, including massive horsepower four cylinder setups. It's just that the V8 swaps get the headlines because they're so wild, and everyone understands a big engine in a little car, whereas not everyone understands the appeal of smaller engine that's being force-fed.

If passing smog in CA is now a factor (first time it's been mentioned here), then there are a whole raft of different parameters that need to be considered.

Keith Tanner wrote: If passing smog in CA is now a factor (first time it's been mentioned here), then there are a whole raft of different parameters that need to be considered.

It certainly isn't a factor for me.