As a 2016 Sedona owner, this looks very much like a revised version of my van.
We love our Sedona by the way.
As a 2016 Sedona owner, this looks very much like a revised version of my van.
We love our Sedona by the way.
spandak said:The front end reminds me of an Explorer.
i think they have a winner on their hands. I totally get the appeal.
You're right, the side profile does have a bit of Ford in it.
For years, I've asked, why can't GM just make a sliding door Suburban? Hell, the new 'Burbans get over 20 mpg on the highway, with a V8 and 4 wheel drive, and will haul just about anything a sane person might have a desire to.
Aren't US tow ratings massively under-estimated compared to Euro tow ratings?
Like, in the US you're considered crazy to try to tow something with your Mazda3 but people tow small caravans and trailers in the UK and EU with them all the time.
In reply to jb229 :
Pretty much. But we also assume "tow rating" means "I can tow 'x' while going 75 in the hammer lane", whereas I believe in Euro-land folks are a bit more conservative with their driving habits while towing.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
In Austrailia, a Kia Minivan is rated for 2,000kg (4,409 lbs) but specifically notes "braked" or a trailer with brakes.
Similar disparity on my Dodge Grand Caravan where Dodge says 3,600 lbs but the hitch manufacturer says 4,400.
In reply to jb229 :
I've questioned the foreign vs domestic towing capacities before too, but it actually made some sense to me when I looked into it further.
My understanding is that foreign tow ratings are generally based on lower speeds requiring a lower stability factor. As such, they are allowed to run as low as 4% (target 5%-7%) tongue weight. Even braked I don't know too many people that would recommend towing at American highway speeds with a 4% (or even 5%-7%) tongue weight, especially while maxing out the tongue weight for the chassis. Their hitches also mount differently to the car, so the max tongue weight loading for the chassis is not necessarily interchangeable either.
volvoclearinghouse said:For years, I've asked, why can't GM just make a sliding door Suburban? Hell, the new 'Burbans get over 20 mpg on the highway, with a V8 and 4 wheel drive, and will haul just about anything a sane person might have a desire to.
Keith Tanner said:I will just add that this is a station wagon. It says so right on the package. It will also seat 7. Labels are hard :)
The badge on the back...
According to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, this is a station wagon. Says so right on the title and owner's card:
No sliding doors either, so not a minivan.
For me, where SUV's lose out to minivans is the interior space to overall length comparison (I have the same issue with full size vans vs. pick-up trucks). There is balance between front end length ahead of the passenger compartment and keeping the engine somewhat serviceable. Most minivans do that well - mostly due to typically transverse engine layout. Full-size vans lose here. I open the hood of my E350 and most of the engine is buried in the firewall. Not fun to work on. Hell, even just getting the batteries in/out isn't a fun task (something I apparently need to do often...) due to the height and tight confines (and my still somewhat broken shoulder).
Anyway... I see nothing in this new Kia that would make me want one over a Sedona or the Grand Caravan I already have. I see a few things I don't like - less floor to ceiling height, cargo room, etc. But I am also an outlier in that I rarely use my minivan as a people hauler and mostly as a cargo hauler. I'm about "> <" this far from gutting the seats out so I can have more storage if I decide to go all-in on making it a camper and abandon the E-350 dream.
volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to jb229 :
Pretty much. But we also assume "tow rating" means "I can tow 'x' while going 75 in the hammer lane over a 10,000' pass", whereas I believe in Euro-land folks are a bit more conservative with their driving habits while towing.
Added a bit of extra clarity for you there.
Americans want a tow vehicle that will be able to do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving at all. Europeans are willing to accept that they will have to drive differently when towing.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Americans want to use a vehicle that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving style.
Europeans want to use a driving style that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their car.
Which would you rather be stuck behind?
Driven5 said:In reply to jb229 :
Their hitches also mount differently to the car, so the max tongue weight loading for the chassis is not necessarily interchangeable either.
That's an interesting point, because why couldn't you just import the overseas hitch mount? How would an overseas hitch mount differently if the chassis is the same globally?
In reply to Driven5 :
The one that's more likely to remember to check the tire pressures and remember to make sure the chain is correctly attached, heh.
Sometimes you do have to wonder how often they actually ticket people for towing CDL capacity trailers with private vehicles.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
So, apparently, all the big rigs on the road out there are horribly underpowered, as I get stuck behind them all the time doing 40 on the highway up a 5% grade. berkeleying European trucks! Why can't they have enough power to blast that hill at 80 mph like a 3500 Boss Ramerado Duty Super King Rancho LTZ Dually Crew Cab 6x6 towing a 6 horse trailer???
jb229 said:Driven5 said:In reply to jb229 :
Their hitches also mount differently to the car, so the max tongue weight loading for the chassis is not necessarily interchangeable either.That's an interesting point, because why couldn't you just import the overseas hitch mount? How would an overseas hitch mount differently if the chassis is the same globally?
Some Euro hitches don't have US-compliant chain loops. I know this is the issue with the Bosal hitch for my Mk IV Jetta that was a dealer option in Europe, but hard to get in the US (a couple of VW vendors sold them). The spare-tire jack holder in my Jetta already has a molded slot for the Bosal plug-in ball component.
volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
So, apparently, all the big rigs on the road out there are horribly underpowered
I don't think any of them would pass SAE j2807, which clearly states its purpose is to create an apples to apples comparison between manufacturers, not to determine safe tow limits.
Driven5 said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Americans want to use a vehicle that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving style.
Europeans want to use a driving style that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their car.
Which would you rather be stuck behind?
Every day? The European. I'll take someone who responds to their vehicle's status over someone who has no idea how large/heavy/overpowered it is. I can always pass if I need to.
Note that I live in a rural area where we come across tractors and gators and other slow farm machinery fairly often. Some vehicles are slower than others and that's okay.
volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
So, apparently, all the big rigs on the road out there are horribly underpowered, as I get stuck behind them all the time doing 40 on the highway up a 5% grade. berkeleying European trucks! Why can't they have enough power to blast that hill at 80 mph like a 3500 Boss Ramerado Duty Super King Rancho LTZ Dually Crew Cab 6x6 towing a 6 horse trailer???
I'm going to make a Ramerado badge for my truck now.
In reply to jb229 :
I don't know enough about Euro-hitches to generalize that it's inherently better or worse from a structural mounting standpoint, when mounted differently for any given application. Only that it can be different. The receiver and locking mechanism itself is different too. Then of course they use metric ball, that may be close (50mm vs 2") but is still not the right fit for American trailers.
Since they don't use chains, there goes your wanting to be behind one in the first place.
Travel trailers are also typically limited to something like <50mph due to only using surge brakes, and subsequently and not being able to use WD/sway bars. Again, that lower mandated speed is what lets them safely get away with such low tongue weights.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
You are grossly overgeneralizing Americans vs Europeans when it comes to the quality and competence of the people actually doing the towing. EVERY country has more than their fair share of idiots who do what idiots do. Europeans are FAR from exempt from this. Loading up a 3300 pound travel trailer behind a 1.6L Mazda 3 stuffed to the brim with people and luggage may be a demonstration in resourcefulness... But is no more smart and savvy than doing the same in a Sedona pulling 3500 with WD/sway while not causing a traffic jam.
You're also only considering your own local traffic levels vs availability of safe passing zones.
Driven5 said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Americans want to use a vehicle that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving style.
Europeans want to use a driving style that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their car.
Which would you rather be stuck behind?
Americans also tend to have enough room to have 2nd and 3rd vehicles at their homes. Make one of them a truck and you would be silly not to use it. Now for the euro-folks living on roads that can barely manage two VW Golfs passing each other without touching the shoulder, you use your econocar to tow. Yes, there are highways, but you still need to get to them...
In reply to Driven5 :
Of course I'm overgeneralizing and of course I am assuming that roads have overtaking room or alternate routes available. I think the latter is reasonable. There's always a way to deal with slower vehicles. I am less concerned with vehicles being driven slowly than you are, it seems. But I am concerned with people driving 20' long 8000 lb trucks (my own is 7700 lbs empty and it's a short bed) as if they were normal cars with normal car stopping distances because I encounter that far more often.
But when you go to Europe (or Australia), it's quite obvious how few private trucks there are. Last time I visited Australia and driving up the coast on the interstate analog, I was trying to spot anyone who was doing the sort of things I do with my truck. And I had no luck. How do race cars get to the track there?
In reply to RossD :
That's my point. For any given vehicle, we've traded off ultimate towing capacity for stability at speed. Based on the vehicle and road constraints, they do what makes the most sense there and we do what makes the most sense here. While neither is ideal in all situations, it would be silly to do what they do here, or what we do there.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I don't follow what you're arguing against at all. It seems you think American vehicles to have too high of a towing capacity, but then also that you think European towing is better because the same tongue weight gets you twice as much trailer capacity as long as you're going slow enough... These seem fairly contradictory to me.
Perhaps you're arguing the former for trucks and the latter for cars... But then that begs the question of why bring an argument about oranges into a discussion about apples?
I think Americans over-emphasize towing capacity in purchase decisions because they are not willing to change their driving style while towing an exceptional load, and this means massively oversized vehicles being driven around on a regular basis. And this often means buying a truck (or a truck with a hat like an Excursion or a Sequoia) instead of a car because only a truck will get you that huge towing capacity. I think changing your driving style to match the load on your vehicle is a better approach. Sizing the vehicle for 99% of the use case and then adapting your driving style for the 1% is more logical than sizing your vehicle for the 1% and having it oversized for the 99%.
Now, this all hinges on the "biggest load you will ever carry". It's not the day to day use, it's the "but what if I buy a big boat in North Carolina and I have to get it back to Salt Lake City in two days in December?" situation. Or even "I go on vacation for 10 days a year with a camper and 8 of those days are parked at a campground".
If you're using a vehicle to tow constantly, it should be sized accordingly. I have no beef with that.
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