In reply to aircooled :
Just a thought, not to flounder but to provoke thinking.
The constitution has several references to to common good and common defense. It's not all about rights. In fact most rights are amendments and subject to some level of interpretation.
noddaz said:My own personal experience with vaccines:
Smallpox, check
measles, check
German measles, check
mumps, check
polio, check
and a couple that I don't remember what they are because I was supposed to go to Haiti and didn't, check
The only one that caused me any issues was the Smallpox vaccine. Yes, I will get the Covid vaccine when it comes out.
Probably Hep-B and Plague that you forgot. I spent about 15 years as "World Wide Deployable" with only a few hours notice. If there was a vaccine for it, I've had it. I never had any reaction to vaccines other than soreness at the injection site.
bobzilla said:So those that screamed for a total lock down, how would that have worked? Ignoring the fact that we have 7k miles of unsecured borders. Ignoring the bill of rights and peoples right to assemble and all that. How do you A.) enforce it and b.) how do you feed, keep electricity/water/gas/etc going for 300M people spread across 300M square miles of country? My friend who I love dearly said someting similar. I asked : Do you think everyone in the country has 2 weeks of supplies and can afford to not work to support their families for 2 weeks? If not that means grocery stores have to be open. You've just killed your total lockdown. Because those employees need gas to get to the store to sell to the people that don't have it. How many would lose their homes, cars etc if they didn't show up for work?
Lets talk about small businesses. How do they survive? Do we just give everyone free money? How does this work? I hear a lot of "we did it wrong" and "we suck" but I'm not hearing any REAL solutions that would have helped this.
The solutions that work elsewhere are met with resistance here.
Politics aside we are fighting a virus not an election.
Those who wrap themselves in the constitution obviously haven't read the part about common good or common defense.
Fueled by Caffeine said:https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/countries-without-coronavirus-no-covid
this article hit me in the feels. We really did hose this up. Plenty of places around the world are acting normally
Hindsight is always 2020. Do I like dealing with where we are right now? no. Does a much harder lockdown at the beginning now sound like it would have been better? yes.
But I also think there are a lot of things that make america great that i'd rather not trade away at the drop of a hat. The article mentions that a province in autstralia went full-lockdown after just 17 cases. It is better to put a full lockdown on any activity after that activity has 17 associated injuries? I don't really fear a government that can't get out of its own way and is therefore unable to make changes. I do fear a government that can 'snap it's fingers and break yo neck'. Companies fear those types of governments too.
I also think they are understating how much easier it is to lock down Perth than it is to lock down NYC. I'm not talking about restaurants. I'm talking about shutting down the economic center of the world.
By the way, has anyone else noticed how much restaurants and bars have gotten the butt end of this deal? They are basically the only 'non-essential' labeled jobs, everyone points the finger at them, and much of their workforce is already economically in a disadvantaged position. It really feels like we are the bully scapegoating our problems onto a community we know won't be able to fight back. Politicians from both sides don't hesitate to hit that punching bag.
Edit, oh yeah, service workers will probably be some of the last to get the vaccine too.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:Fueled by Caffeine said:https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/countries-without-coronavirus-no-covid
this article hit me in the feels. We really did hose this up. Plenty of places around the world are acting normally
Hindsight is always 2020. Do I like dealing with where we are right now? no. Does a much harder lockdown at the beginning now sound like it would have been better? yes.
But I also think there are a lot of things that make america great that i'd rather not trade away at the drop of a hat. The article mentions that a province in autstralia went full-lockdown after just 17 cases. It is better to put a full lockdown on any activity after that activity has 17 associated injuries? I don't really fear a government that can't get out of its own way and is therefore unable to make changes. I do fear a government that can 'snap it's fingers and break yo neck'. Companies fear those types of governments too.
I also think they are understating how much easier it is to lock down Perth than it is to lock down NYC. I'm not talking about restaurants. I'm talking about shutting down the economic center of the world.
By the way, has anyone else noticed how much restaurants and bars have gotten the butt end of this deal? They are basically the only 'non-essential' labeled jobs, everyone points the finger at them, and much of their workforce is already economically in a disadvantaged position. It really feels like we are the bully scapegoating our problems onto a community we know won't be able to fight back. Politicians from both sides don't hesitate to hit that punching bag.
Restaurant (well, brewpub) owner here. It's really bad, and it's going to get worse without any specialized targeted stimulus for us. Most of our customer base is too scared to dine in, so our sales are down 50-60% without any outdoor dining in New England due to weather. The governments won't lock us down, so we still have to staff and stay open for essentially what is half of our normal business. And it sounds like, if the next PPP rolls through, restaurants that haven't officially been 'locked down for dine-in' will be excluded from collecting, which is pretty much every restaurant in the US that isn't in metro-California.
It's predicted that without support or emergency funding, 11,000 restaurants will close within the next month operating at the status quo. And all of this is of absolutely zero fault of our own. We're just trying to get by, keep our staff happy and supported, and praying for a vaccine, recovery, stimulus, or all of the above. Nobody supports us. Landlords need theirs, and most are unwilling to be flexible on rent, so that means closures and sending our staff to unemployment, or temprary/seasonal closures with hopes that the spring will be better.
It's dire. And nobody wants to listen or act. We've already laid off 25 due to reduced earnings and volume. More are coming if something doesn't give, and soon. We'll survive because we have the brewery and can package and distribute out to make our ends meet... but there are many many many others that will not survive.
Now is the time to buy gift cards, merch, takeout, and to-go beer from a brewery/restaurant. Without a dramatic shift in increased business, your favorite restaurant/pub/bar probably won't be there next time you want to go out.
I know this is off-topic, but stll... This is why the general public NEEDS a vaccine- It'll instill confidence back into leaving the house and spending money. Getting it or not is somewhat irrelevant, to be totally honest. It's the optics and general concern that need to be addressed more than anything.
Glad to see this thread has turned into the same hot mess the last CV thread turned into.
The same group of guys never lets us down.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:AAZCD (Forum Supporter) said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said: ... So far, the only arguments I have heard are completely false, debunked myths, totally implausible conspiracies, or just regurgitating a meme that their uncle Karl posted last month. ...Seriously, news readers shouting that something is completely "debunked" has no effect on about 1/2 of the population.
Exactly my point... half of the US population takes hard data, scientific evidence, peer-reviewed research, and throws it in the trash with their only source being "I don't like those facts, so they're not facts." or "It's a government conspiracy because I want it to be."
But this Instatwitt influencer has this clever meme that trumps your peer reviewed clinical study!
bobzilla said:So those that screamed for a total lock down, how would that have worked? Ignoring the fact that we have 7k miles of unsecured borders. Ignoring the bill of rights and peoples right to assemble and all that. How do you A.) enforce it and b.) how do you feed, keep electricity/water/gas/etc going for 300M people spread across 300M square miles of country? My friend who I love dearly said someting similar. I asked : Do you think everyone in the country has 2 weeks of supplies and can afford to not work to support their families for 2 weeks? If not that means grocery stores have to be open. You've just killed your total lockdown. Because those employees need gas to get to the store to sell to the people that don't have it. How many would lose their homes, cars etc if they didn't show up for work?
Lets talk about small businesses. How do they survive? Do we just give everyone free money? How does this work? I hear a lot of "we did it wrong" and "we suck" but I'm not hearing any REAL solutions that would have helped this.
I don't have all the answers. Other countries have decided to prioritize things differently and as a result they were far better prepared to support their economy. Our congress is currently considering an almost $1 trillion stimulus package that wouldn't have been necessary if we had taken those measures.
Other countries had essential workers as well, so things like utilities, healthcare, and food supply weren't interrupted. Their views on "free money" are a great deal different than ours because they actually tax corporations unlike the burden being primarily on individuals like it is here. Many of them also haven' provoked dozens of other countries requiring a military that is 20-some times larger than the next largest country's military. Many other countries also don't place excessive glory on the labor /hardship aspect of employment and more on the product/outcome. This has led to widespread automation in many countries and a lot of them have abandoned the firm, rigid structure we adhere to with employment in the states. The average work week for a middle-income salary in Belgium is something like 20 hours now. Even Canada is easily in position to pay very long-term unemployment (even before the pandemic) and free healthcare, affordable education, and many other social systems because they have set up a system in which responsibility is greater than individuality. It hasn't made Canadians a bunch of brainwashed people. They are still just as individual as we are, but without the exclusion of their fellow Canadians.
The constitution was written to be able to be suspended in emergencies. The founders who wrote it knew that your access to those rights do not excuse you of your responsibilities. If your right to freedom of assembly leads to widespread death for millions of people, your assembly is not exempt from responsibility. You can't just take three words of the Bill of Rights and apply it to everything. It has context.
The short answer is that America has been doing it wrong for a lot longer than just during the pandemic. C19 is a crucible, and our beliefs are not withstanding the heat. We have set up an economy where we give freebies to corporations, but believe that one person on welfare is a drain on the economy and less than human. We live in a system that favors overseas outsourcing and has shifted all of our major industries overseas; steel, energy, auto manufacturing, and then we condemn it for being un-American. I was furloughed on March 22nd and I'm glad. It sucks. I love my job, I loved the tiny salary, I loved the people I worked with... which meant I was proud to be part of the solution. My hair is long and ugly, my bank account is dry, and I will live this way as long as is necessary knowing that I'm not potentially causing death.
If we had instead set up a system in which we don't give $1.25 trillion dollars back to Apple, Facebook, BP, and other fat cats (which, incidentally is larger than the entire US discretionary budget), then this free money that so many people think is death would be a drop in the bucket, and zero expense to individual taxpayers.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Exactly my point... half of the US population takes hard data, scientific evidence, peer-reviewed research, and throws it in the trash with their only source being "I don't like those facts, so they're not facts." or "It's a government conspiracy because I want it to be."
To be fair, it's not just the masses doing that.
It's also leaders, influencers and the media.
If you want the masses to change, the people influencing them need to be held to a higher standard.
US Government to all US industries in 1942: You are hereby ordered to do a complete 180 and start manufacturing guns, tanks, and planes for the war effort. No new cars, RVs, or boats, and the main staple of women's fashion and the one thing that women are expected to wear for simple decency will now be unavailable so we can use the nylon in parachutes. We will give you government money for this.
US industries: berkeley yeah! How many tanks, guns, and planes do you need so all Americans can share in a great victory?
US Government to men in 1942: We need you to enlist and fight this enemy against terrible odds of your survival
US men in 1942: Too late, already did, where's my weapon. I will risk my life for America!
US Government to women in 1942: We need you to stop wearing your undergarments and join the workforce so we can send the men to fight in this American cause. We have set up truckloads of free money for childcare, erected buildings where your children can go free of charge while you work
US Women: Hell yes! Where do I sign up so that we as a unified America can support the effort?
US Government in 2020: We want you to wear a free, harmless piece of paper on your face to prevent 1.5 million deaths.
Half of US People in 2020: I HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO BREATHE AND GO TO A BAR! And don't even think about giving out free money to lazy people who can't work.
ShawnG said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Exactly my point... half of the US population takes hard data, scientific evidence, peer-reviewed research, and throws it in the trash with their only source being "I don't like those facts, so they're not facts." or "It's a government conspiracy because I want it to be."
To be fair, it's not just the masses doing that.
It's also leaders, influencers and the media.
If you want the masses to change, the people influencing them need to be held to a higher standard.
True, but chicken or the egg? Who's the bigger fool... the one who says it, or the one who believes it?
Well, since this thread is already berkeleyed...
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:US Government in 2020: We want you to wear a free, harmless piece of paper on your face to prevent 1.5 million deaths.
Also US Government in 2020:
I think these threads are great. We all try not floundering, then someone says something semi-floundering and we all see that the end is near and rush to get the most flounderest post in before the mods lock it.
In reply to golfduke :
My sister is having the same thing in Belgium. She finally came home to see her daughter that she hasn't seen in a year. She's not sure if her restaurant will be open by the time she can get back. They are getting individual income support, but they owe taxes and rent and all of that. They can pay their staff, but not the people that they owe money to.
In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
Sorry Robbie it wasn't Australia but New Zealand.
The leader who was re-elected by a very wide margin recently.
ProDarwin said:Well, since this thread is already berkeleyed...
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:US Government in 2020: We want you to wear a free, harmless piece of paper on your face to prevent 1.5 million deaths.
Also US Government in 2020:
- Masks are not necessary, we don't recommend wearing them.
I understand why they said that. But that was a BAD move on the part of the CDC.
What's the old joke about slapping someone over the phone?
Anyway, wishing there was some sort of internet spray bottle.
In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :
Oh, I would get squirted a LOT
In reply to golfduke :
I think my wife is single-handedly trying to keep all of our 6 favorite restaurants in business, much for this reason. We are doing much more takeout these days than we normally do.
Anyway. our local brewpub that we like has recently started offering family style meals. Much easier to order on the phone, easier to package and with less waste products, and works out to about half price AKA we can buy it twice as often. And there are twice as many chances for us to buy their beer.
Might be something to consider if you haven't already.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Yeah me too.
Well y'all can hate me for my views. I'm not an anti vaxer, but I don't want the vaccine because I don't feel the need.
So far around 330,000 people have died out of the what 330 millionish people. Under 70 there's what a 99.8% survival rate. And that's over a 12 month period.
I don't wish death onto anyone or their families, but I'm not scared of it. Yesterday marked 21 years since we buried my 2 year old sister. She died from strangulation on cord from a window blind. So do we all rip out our blinds for safety now?
The death rate in my opinion while sucks, is to me not a super alarming rate. I look at COVID same way I look at driving. I'll take cautions, but there's still risk of death at the end of the day. But maybe we should all give up our cars so there's not a risk?
I just want to live my life, deal with whatever the bitch deals me, and move on.
Just my opinion, y'all can all tell me how I'm evil now
Oh and all this could all be for nothing. There's an asteroid that has a 1 in 150000 chance of taking us all out in 2068, that scares me
Subscriber-unavailabile said:Well y'all can hate me for my views. I'm not an anti vaxer, but I don't want the vaccine because I don't feel the need.
So far around 330,000 people have died out of the what 330 millionish people. Under 70 there's what a 99.8% survival rate. And that's over a 12 month period.I don't wish death onto anyone or their families, but I'm not scared of it. Yesterday marked 21 years since we buried my 2 year old sister. She died from strangulation on cord from a window blind. So do we all rip out our blinds for safety now?
The death rate in my opinion while sucks, is to me not a super alarming rate. I look at COVID same way I look at driving. I'll take cautions, but there's still risk of death at the end of the day. But maybe we should all give up our cars so there's not a risk?I just want to live my life, deal with whatever the bitch deals me, and move on.
Just my opinion, y'all can all tell me how I'm evil now
I've started to type 4 responses to this and deleted them. I'll just say that, to me, the bolded parts are at odds with each other.
What is the negative of getting the vaccine?
Subscriber-unavailabile said:Well y'all can hate me for my views. I'm not an anti vaxer, but I don't want the vaccine because I don't feel the need.
So far around 330,000 people have died out of the what 330 millionish people. Under 70 there's what a 99.8% survival rate. And that's over a 12 month period.I don't wish death onto anyone or their families, but I'm not scared of it. Yesterday marked 21 years since we buried my 2 year old sister. She died from strangulation on cord from a window blind. So do we all rip out our blinds for safety now?
The death rate in my opinion while sucks, is to me not a super alarming rate. I look at COVID same way I look at driving. I'll take cautions, but there's still risk of death at the end of the day. But maybe we should all give up our cars so there's not a risk?I just want to live my life, deal with whatever the bitch deals me, and move on.
Just my opinion, y'all can all tell me how I'm evil now
Do you wear a seat belt while driving?
engiekev said:Subscriber-unavailabile said:Well y'all can hate me for my views. I'm not an anti vaxer, but I don't want the vaccine because I don't feel the need.
So far around 330,000 people have died out of the what 330 millionish people. Under 70 there's what a 99.8% survival rate. And that's over a 12 month period.I don't wish death onto anyone or their families, but I'm not scared of it. Yesterday marked 21 years since we buried my 2 year old sister. She died from strangulation on cord from a window blind. So do we all rip out our blinds for safety now?
The death rate in my opinion while sucks, is to me not a super alarming rate. I look at COVID same way I look at driving. I'll take cautions, but there's still risk of death at the end of the day. But maybe we should all give up our cars so there's not a risk?I just want to live my life, deal with whatever the bitch deals me, and move on.
Just my opinion, y'all can all tell me how I'm evil nowDo you wear a seat belt while driving?
strawman. Seatbelts are required by law.
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