Cub Scouts

Got my Eagle, Explorer Silver, and God and Country in the late 50's - early 60's. The Troop and Explorer Post were very active and had excellent leaders. I think I have benefited greatly from my experience.

Scouts have changed dramatically since I was involved but I would still recommend it. The important factor which others have mentioned is the leadership.

I don't know if I should share this or not, but here goes...

My personal experience with Scouts was pretty f'ing miserable after entering WEBLOS. The younger scouting stuff (Cub Scouts) was okay, since we were all friends anyway and the politics of the troop didn't seem to filter down to us as kids. That said, as a parent now, I've talked to my parents who said there was a lot of BS. And once I was old enough to be aware and was in Boy Scouts, it was painfully obvious that there were a lot of jerk kids and douchebag grown-ups involved. There was a lot of bullying, sexism, gay bashing, sado-masochistic crap, etc. I've talked to some others guys there were in scouts in different areas and they seemed to have the same kinds of experiences. And I'm not even going to talk about the truly heinous and criminal stuff that some Scout Masters and leaders did. Suffice it to say that I don't have a good impression of the Scouts.

All of that said, I still let my son join the Cub Scouts last year because he initiated it and seemed really interested in the kinds of stuff scouting is supposed to represent. As others have mentioned, it is only as good as the people involved, and I have to say that our local troop was full of complete shiny happy people and douchebags as far as I can tell, and that includes much of the leadership and many of the parents. Also, the fact that the Scouts is a religious organization became an issue around the holidays. My sons are Jewish (my wife is, I'm not) and when caroling became a event, my son inquired about including some Hanukkah songs. When we mentioned it to the troop leader, we were completely shut down, ostracized, and dismissed. When we appealed for further consideration, they got hostile and sent a rather aggressive letter basically kicking us out of the troop. No, I'm not kidding.

My 6 year old son made the decision (without any input from us, or any awareness of what had happened) that if they weren't going to include any Hanukkah songs, then he wouldn't participate and did not want to be involved with an organization that was not accepting and inclusive. To say we were stunned by the insight and wisdom of a 6 year old would be an understatement. I still swell with pride telling that story. But I also still get pretty f'ing pissed at the Scouts for that and all the other BS I've witnessed with them over the years.

F!@# the Scouts.

darkbuddha wrote: F!@# the Scouts.

berkeley you too Wyatt.

Thanks for assuming that the behaviour you witnessed represents everyone.

You could use some of that insight you mentioned earlier.

darkbuddha wrote: F!@# the Scouts.

Well said.

The anti-semitism thing is sadly not surprising.

Trans_Maro wrote:

darkbuddha wrote: F!@# the Scouts.

berkeley you too Wyatt. Thanks for assuming that the behaviour you witnessed represents everyone. You could use some of that insight you mentioned earlier.

I too have heard some horror stories from other scouts and troops, things that pissed me off, things that made me think, holy E36 M3 how did THIS kid get the rank of Eagle? Some of it just sickening. There can be some nasty politics and completely unreasonable folks involved in some troops, and even at the council level.

But thats not the experience I had in my pack/troop whatsoever. Im sorry that you did darkbuddha.

I enjoyed Cub Scouts for a couple of years. It was all of the kids that I ran around with from the neighborhood. We got a new scoutmaster and most kids quit, except the few that were forced to stick it out. I do not remember the problem with the new scoutmaster, I think that it was something very petty and beauraucratic.

I have a good friend with a son that enjoyed being a Cub Scout. About 5 or 6 years ago he had advanced to the Boy Scouts and he started having problems with the leaders being fools. During a woodworking project the leader was demonstrating something when my friend's son pointed out that he was being unsafe. The leader told him to be quiet and learn. He did learn about first aid when the leader sliced his hand to the bone 30 seconds later. The same leader was teaching them gun safety one afternoon when my friend gets a phone call from his son asking to to be picked up from the range. This leader had violated many safety rules that we had taught. That was my young friends last day as a scout.

I knew all kinds of bad stories would come up in this thread and yes scouts isn't perfect. When I first went from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, I came so close to quitting because of the troop I was with sucked and did nothing. But a new troop started in my town and I joined that one. I got to do some many cool things I wouldn't have got to do otherwise (and yes my parents were very involved with me growing up). I will say I loved my experience in Scouts. Yes there can be shiny happy people involved and yes there are some policies I don't agree with but an organized activity whether that is sports, racing, whatever has that.

Trans_Maro wrote:

darkbuddha wrote: F!@# the Scouts.

berkeley you too Wyatt. Thanks for assuming that the behaviour you witnessed represents everyone. You could use some of that insight you mentioned earlier.

This kind of reaction is exactly why I hesitated to share my experience and perspective. It's also probably why more folks don't share their negative experiences. I think we all want to believe that the Scouts as an organization is a good and worthwhile thing really. But the Scouts seem to polarize people, and I find it pretty typical that the proponents get rather defensive, then offensive, rather than trying to offer some empathy or sympathy. And really, you're proving to be an excellent emissary for the Scouts by making it personal. Further proof of the kinds of people the scouts attract? And the kind of influence it will have on its kids? Hmmm...

I might agree that I need more insight, but given that I went through scouts up through first class starting from cub scouts (because I naively thought it was a good thing to do), and having witnessed everything I have, I think I have adequate insight to make and share my opinion. And you'll note, that in spite of my better judgement and my poor experiences, I still gave the scouts the benefit of the doubt and let my 6 year old enter. It is not my fault that he (and we) encountered the kind of BS he did, but he had the misfortune of running into it much much much earlier than I did.

Many of my issue and problems I encountered with the scouts is a combination of it as a para-military organization bound up with organized religion. As a lifelong military brat (army), I know enough about integrity, honor, proper demeanor, discipline, etc. to know that much of what I experienced in the scouts was the opposite of that. The para-military thing may be the biggest issue in fact... the use of ranks to represent authority and the translation of that authority into leadership and/or control/command (whether that kind of power is deserved or not). And I won't even start on the organized religion thing.

But hey, I'm just one guy with my own isolated experiences, right? No one else has posted any negative experiences, now have they?

failboat wrote: But thats not the experience I had in my pack/troop whatsoever. Im sorry that you did darkbuddha.

I appreciate that. I'm equally disappointed that the experience you had is not the one my son had. I really did like the idea of him enjoying his time learning scouting related stuff like camping, fishing, safety, first aid, etc., while socializing with other kids. Instead he found himself on the outside, feeling excluded.

You guys know you can just take the kids camping, right? Hunting, shooting, archery, fishing, camping and hiking are all available by walking into the woods with appropriate gear and applying some common sense. If you have none of that - books and classes are available to help you avoid getting mauled by bears, burning down the whole forest or shooting each other in the face with arrows.

You only need scouting if you also crave art projects executed in the basement of a protestant church while wearing uniforms.

Scouting in general: I am/was an Eagle scout. I didn't care that much about it then, but now I'm glad I finished it- I basically did so for my dad and grandfather. Grandpa was the live-on-site-year-round ranger at Camp Boxwell in middle TN in the 60s, so that was kind of neat for us, as we got to go to camp in the summers basically where Dad grew up.

The troop we were part of met at an Episcopal church, but as far as I remember had absolutely no religion anything included except the stuff about god and country in the scout oath/law/etc. I liked it that way, and that's what I'd want for my kids now- unfortunately I think that may be tough to come by... There were hooligan kids in there, sure, but mostly good ones and overall it was a positive thing. I learned a lot, most practical thing I can think of offhand is that I know how to tie stuff into my truck bed and have it stay- the knots have come in handy.

Cub scouts specifically: My oldest is interested in joining cub scouts (which I was never in, started scouts when i was 11), we may yet do it, or we may wait a year. It'll depend a lot on the group and what the leadership looks like. I'll probably help some, I don't mind. For $50 or whatever a year I kind of expect to have to be involved, and besides, that's a big part of the point. The organization only really works with good parents involved, and for good or ill, that will produce widely variable experiences depending on who you have the good/bad luck to get involved with.

They vary tremendously from pack to pack. Some good, some very much not so. Check them out if you've got more than one, and find one that's a suitable match for your kid.

Had a blast all the way up to Eagle. Had a hard core troop though, 4-5 day backpacking trips. Hiking into scout events with all our gear when everybody else would bus in over the rough stuff.

I honestly believe that If I had not done it I would not be who I am today. I would have still had the outdoor skills just due to my family situation but loved every aspect of the scouts.

Also I am Jewish and vocal never had any sort of problems in the scouts with religion or lack of understanding. We also had a few parents who might not have fit the "scout" mold but they never got crap because the group was very protective of itself.

In reply to darkbuddha:

Hey, I posted negative experiences as did other people. You're not the only one.

When it comes time that my son is interested, I will do this on my own. I already camp, fish, hike, and bike.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: You guys know you can just take the kids camping, right? Hunting, shooting, archery, fishing, camping and hiking are all available by walking into the woods with appropriate gear and applying some common sense. If you have none of that - books and classes are available to help you avoid getting mauled by bears, burning down the whole forest or shooting each other in the face with arrows. You only need scouting if you also crave art projects executed in the basement of a protestant church while wearing uniforms.

It isn't always to plan a camping trip and having a group makes it easier. Plus how many times did you take a 60 mile 11 day backpacking trip?

93EXCivic wrote: Plus how many times did you take a 60 mile 11 day backpacking trip?

In Scouts, never. We didn't even go outside. With my family - I have spent more time in the woods on "vacations" or hunting/fishing trips than Grizzly Adams.

It was kinda depressing to come back from a two week elk hunting trip in Canada with my grandfather and uncle to spend my "scouting" time whoring popcorn to my neighbors.

I see that there are people who had positive experiences with the whole thing but it seems like it is really very individualized by the quality of the person who runs the troop... You have to get lucky or seek out a good one if you want a quality experience meaning the brand of "Boy Scouts" is just a broken franchise. If I want a Big Mac I don't ask where the good McDonalds are - they are the same everywhere. If I have to interview the manager then it kinda defeats the purpose, no?

Jake wrote: For $50 or whatever a year I kind of expect to have to be involved, and besides, that's a big part of the point. The organization only really works with good parents involved, and for good or ill, that will produce widely variable experiences depending on who you have the good/bad luck to get involved with.

I think here's a big piece of the issue I'm having with cub scouts (to recap, my son just went to his first scout meeting last week, he's 7 years old). I understand that it takes good parents to make the experience good for the kids. The same holds true for signing the kids up for soccer, baseball and other stuff like that. But when I sign my kids up for soccer or karate, I just bring him there, hang out and watch. I know that's sounds wrong, like I'm implying that I just want to "dump" my kid off somewhere. That's not at all what I mean. Far from it. I have great admiration and appreciation for the parents who volunteer to coach soccer, or for the sensei in karate. But I just don't have the time (or interest) in being a scout myself. I enjoy being able to take the kids to swimming and just watch them, and they enjoy it too. The group/pack we were with very much made it seem like it was a requirement that I volunteer lots of free time and be as much of a scout as my son is.

I do a ton of things with my kids on my own, like others mentioned. I don't want someone pushing me and trying to make me feel like a bad parent if I don't want to be a scout with my son.

Cub Scouts, Webelo's, and Boy Scouts through the end of 8th grade - great time and I enjoyed it all.

One weekend local campout the kids went to bed and the leaders drove over to a local bar for a few adult cocktails. On the way back they get into a car accident. The Pastor of the church the troop was affiliated with slapped their hands.

I still shake my head at that.

I can't wait until my kid wants to be a scout. Guaranteed the den leader won't have seen me comin'. Kinda like school.... omg are the teachers and the PTA gonna be loads of fun.

(For the record, I tend to be a E36 M3 starter)

In reply to Trans_Maro:

The Boy Scouts of America are a different organization than Scouts Canada. It isn't an apples to apples comparison, and his experience with the Scouts is about typical of what I would expect in most areas of the USA.

It's like if we were talking about our experience with the Army, and you chimed in with the same response.

I was in Indian Guides. Nothing but good things to say about it. I think that they have Bob Costasfied it and call it Adventure Guides now

Funny that people talk about Scouting being Anti-Semite, when there are a number of Jewish troops in this area, as well as Jewish leaders, Christian leaders, and Muslim leaders. My son's troop is based out of a Catholic church, but there have been both Muslim and Jewish scouts in the troop, and our advancement chairman is Jewish.

There are religious awards for pretty much every major religion, and the organization is worldwide, in most countries, and religious or non-religious locales. I've seen both buddhist and atheist leaders (or, like myself, more of an agnostic leader).

I'm an Eagle Scout, and it's helped me in later life. Not having a degree, that Eagle badge on my resume actually tends to mean something. My stepson got his Eagle, and went into the Navy. His Eagle meant an immediate rank increase just for being one, and while in boot camp, was made Educational Petty Officer on being Eagle alone.

Like most ventures, you get out of it what you put into it, and I can tell by some of the negative remarks that maybe negativity was put into it at the time, thus getting only negativity out of it.

Or, as it has been said a few times, some troops are really just crappy and that the organization as a whole has been made an arm of the religious right in the past few years. We absolutely agree that you get out what you put into it, it is just that in some places, there are a lot of ignorant bigots putting huge, heaping helpings of their special brand of bullE36 M3 into the local troop, and one or two families trying to counteract it won't make much of a difference.

Have you noticed that a lot of the people saying they never noticed the Christian bias in the scouts are from areas outside of the bible belt. A troop centered in Manhattan is probably going to be a little different from one centered in Boone, NC.

Wyatt.

You had some bad experiences, just like a lot of folks did, that's unfortunate.

When you spout off something ignorant like this:

darkbuddha wrote: F!@# the Scouts.

You're making it personal, just like if I had said "Berkely the Jews"

You're painting everyone with the same brush, what did you expect?

Sorry, that comment you made applied to everyone in the organisation, worldwide.

I'm an atheist so the religion thing is neither here nor there for me.

ANY organisation will have bad folks involved sooner or later. Want to fix the bad experience problem for your kids and others? Why not volunteer and be a leader.

Scouts Canada is a different organisation than BSA, the policy here welcomes everyone. The only thing I've seen in the program up here that would be religious is the required belief in a supreme being.

I have no problem with that because I believe in myself.

As others have said, you get out what you put in.

I'm not trying to be a prick about it and I'm not pissed at you or anyone else about voicing their bad experiences. Just that one quote was particulary irritating.

Shawn

Trans_Maro wrote: ANY organisation will have bad folks involved sooner or later. Want to fix the bad experience problem for your kids and others? Why not volunteer and be a leader.

Smartest thing said in this thread yet.