In reply to Duke :
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking of: the story of the Union guy with his hand on the car as the owners pushed it into the Chicago Convention Center.
I remember Wally once asked the group why the seeming hate for unions he sees sometimes, this is why. Union power/influence like most things (government, big business businesses, fatty food) is good in moderation (and probably more importantly, in balance), but always seems to be looking for more and eventually too much. Any of these groups, with too much power, eventually become indistinguishable from the mob:
Do want we say, or else.
In reply to bobzilla :
If the ports were paying enough for people to live here they could fill the open jobs and that overtime wouldn't exist. The ports aren't paying overtime because they want to, they're paying it because there's more work than there are workers.
I think the automation in European ports is pretty high , I know unions are strong there , I wonder how they solved that ?
In reply to bobzilla :
Do you have a source for "the majority of these guys hitting the overtime enough that their actual salary has been upwards of 150to 200K per year?"
I'm not attacking anyone's statements, I'd just like to be more informed.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to bobzilla :
If the ports were paying enough for people to live here they could fill the open jobs and that overtime wouldn't exist. The ports aren't paying overtime because they want to, they're paying it because there's more work than there are workers.
Around here (few striking ports along my commute) there used to be some pretty fierce gatekeeping amongst the longshoremen. Had to know someone to get the job in the first place. So, there wasn't a shortage of people who would work at the ports, only a shortage of those who were deemed "worthy". Maybe that's changed?
I'm torn on union labor in general. I'm firmly "management"...so hard for me to fairly opine.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to bobzilla :
If the ports were paying enough for people to live here they could fill the open jobs and that overtime wouldn't exist. The ports aren't paying overtime because they want to, they're paying it because there's more work than there are workers.
Automate and give higher wages to the skilled people who remain.
I already know how this thread is going to turn out.
Appleseed said:
I already know how this thread is going to turn out.
I can edit down my thoughts if that helps steer it back?
In reply to Spearfishin :
This ship is accelerating directly towards the sun. Nothing we can do will stop it. Express your thoughts to the fullest.
In reply to Appleseed :
Ha, sure sure. Well, I recognize my perspective is probably lopsided, so I don't want to be responsible for adding fuel to the fire.
I don't have a big issue with their current pay-the guys making 200k are senior guys, probably running equipment like cranes while pulling overtime (1.5x? 2x?) in NY.
NY is just stupidly expensive-use this Cost of Living calculator to play around, but if you're making 130k in Omaha Nebraska that shakes out to 200k in Queens.
COLA calculator: https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/omaha-ne-vs-new-york-queens-ny
Salary Info: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-do-dock-workers-make-longshoreman-salary/
For comparison, here is the 2020 rate card for union crane operators in Flushing: https://www.local14funds.org/forms/NewForms/WageScaleCard0712019.pdf
======================================================
We shouldn't run around asking "Where are all the young guys?" and then E36 M3 on a bunch of young guys who are making a professional salary in the trades.
But berkeley their leadership for playing with fire.
Mr_Asa
MegaDork
10/3/24 9:00 a.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:
We shouldn't run around asking "Where are all the young guys?" and then E36 M3 on a bunch of young guys who are making a professional salary in the trades.
That one. Right there.
Its every thread that discusses someone who works with their back trying to get paid for the effort and pain of working with their back.
You dont get it both ways.
Mr_Asa said:
CrustyRedXpress said:
We shouldn't run around asking "Where are all the young guys?" and then E36 M3 on a bunch of young guys who are making a professional salary in the trades.
That one. Right there.
Its every thread that discusses someone who works with their back trying to get paid for the effort and pain of working with their back.
You dont get it both ways.
Who is E36 M3ting on anyone making a decent salary? What I AM seeing is an aversion to wanting a 75+% increase in pay when you're already making well over the national average.
I get it, there are a lot of union nut swingers in here and y'all will die for the union, so out of respect for your opinions (even though none will be offered in return) I have said all I can and will say on this. Y'all enjoy patting each other on the backs.
Respect? You E36 M3 on people working overtime by calling them greedy, but say you'll respect opinions, and dare a retort so you can cry out, "They're picking on me!" That's some twisted E36 M3, dude.
iansane
SuperDork
10/3/24 10:02 a.m.
wvumtnbkr said:
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to bobzilla :
If the ports were paying enough for people to live here they could fill the open jobs and that overtime wouldn't exist. The ports aren't paying overtime because they want to, they're paying it because there's more work than there are workers.
Automate and give higher wages to the skilled people who remain.
That's been the MO so far. Back before containerization it took a whole gang of guys to manually load a ship. Part of what the longshore and waterfront unions bargained for was as the number of needed guys dropped, their pay was all directed to the remaining workers. That's why crane operators make so much.
If there's one thing that unions understand it's leverage. Unions are strongest where they have the most leverage: The public sector and fairly specialized - bordering on monopolized situations. For the most part I don't give a hoot, even though workers in the union that I used to be a member of make more than I do as a non-union boss. You make decisions, you take your chances. Good on them.
So in this case the Union has a lot of leverage - and its magnified by the coming election and the overall fragile state of the economy.
SV reX
MegaDork
10/3/24 11:10 a.m.
NY Union works are an enormous outlier to the manual trades labor force in this country, and perhaps in the entire world.
They don't come close to representing most people's reality.
camopaint0707 said:
The automation ban is more important to them than the salary increase. Long beach is nearly all automated.
As it should be. Automation for tasks like this almost always outperform the humans. I spend my life automating things like this.
Autoskid tech is insane and they have already solved the pick and place which is much harder as it is not on standardized part sizing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKrcpa8Z_E
STOCK UP ON TOILET PAPER AND WATER NOW!!!!!
Apparently this is actually happening.... almost all toilet paper is made domestically, or in Canada or Mexico.... argh.
It probably should be noted that the "kick the dog" aspects of these strikes is what also creates bad blood for the unions. They have a problem with their employment situation, so they "kick" the populace (scarcity, higher prices) to get what they want. A bit like those people blocking highways to protest something. The primary result of those is pissing off a bunch of people who are trying to get to work.
Lots of different perspectives here, which is good.
I would say that I give a lot of weight to Wally's point about the cost of living in the area. Looking at their current income in the context of where it fits in the national average is pointless.
I'm not making any claims to accuracy, but I'll just leave this here (I think NYC metro area is higher than what's indicated, but that is my opinion):
Reddit source
CrustyRedXpress said:
I don't have a big issue with their current pay-the guys making 200k are senior guys, probably running equipment like cranes while pulling overtime (1.5x? 2x?) in NY.
NY is just stupidly expensive-use this Cost of Living calculator to play around, but if you're making 130k in Omaha Nebraska that shakes out to 200k in Queens.
COLA calculator: https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/omaha-ne-vs-new-york-queens-ny
Salary Info: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-do-dock-workers-make-longshoreman-salary/
For comparison, here is the 2020 rate card for union crane operators in Flushing: https://www.local14funds.org/forms/NewForms/WageScaleCard0712019.pdf
======================================================
We shouldn't run around asking "Where are all the young guys?" and then E36 M3 on a bunch of young guys who are making a professional salary in the trades.
But berkeley their leadership for playing with fire.
The cost of living has gotten insane. I looked at moving closer when Jodi passed because spending four+ hours a day commuting has gotten old. To get a one bedroom apartment within an hour of my office would be at least $900/month more than my $1700 mortgage. A two bedroom house similar to the one I have would be three times as expensive and the taxes four times higher. Fewer people are will to make this trek to work every day, so they're trying to get an increase in pay. If people don't start getting paid better the area will eventually collapse. As it is there's very little middle class anymore, they all commute in. It's either fairly wealthy, or really poor.
In reply to Spearfishin :
There isn't as much gatekeeping as there used to be. No one's kids want to take these jobs anymore. Here they're fairly open to people as long as they're physically able and can pass a drug test. Both bigger hurdles than they should be.
SV reX
MegaDork
10/3/24 2:45 p.m.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
We face similar obstacles in construction.
Unfortunately, when decades of "gatekeeping" and other hurdles to employment create perceptions about an industry, the perceptions become the reality whether they are true or not.
Sometimes the only way to change an industry is to implement major painful change (see previously mentioned 1980's air traffic controller's strike)
Don't have time to look at this now, but here is the just-expired master contract for the ILA. It has base salary information along with yearly "raises."
$1 in 2018 is equivalent to $1.25 in 2024.
Also, don't forget that capital doubles in value every 10 years (this is after inflation).
https://ilaunion.org/wp-content/uploads/MasterContract0-2021-12.pdf
