Kylo Ren is imo one of the biggest reasons the new trilogy sucks. He is just so whiny.
The depressing thing with Star Wars is there are more crap films then good ones... You have 4 amazing films, 1 decent film and at least 5 terrible ones. Still haven't seen the last one of the new trilogy.
The problem with Darth Emo is that he is just plopped into the storyline as an oversized ball of teen angst without any explanation of how he got that way. Yeah yeah Han and Leia divorce yadda yadda but seriously he's a psychotic toddler trapped in a man's body and given the Force to carry out all his darkest frustrated adolescent sex fantasies... but WHY is he like that?
*crickets*
That's why he's so unsatisfying as a character.
Duke said:but WHY are they like that?
*crickets*
That's why they're so unsatisfying as a series.
fixt
Let's face it Luke had no business being a teacher. He received little to no instruction and was vulnerable to his emotions, hence his actions against Ben. Then he was lured to the Dark Side by what turned out to be a bad science experiment who was such a poor force user that he couldn't pick up on Kylo's betrayal even after picking up on Rey's "awakening". Yet he was still a competent force user just with limit use and had above average light saber skill (keeping in mind he was wounded during his fight in the woods).
My biggest problem with the ep 7-9 trilogy is more fundamental than the writing for the characters, it's the whole premise of the setting.
At the end of RotJ the Emperor is (seemingly) killed, Vader is dead, the second Death Star is destroyed and the Imperial Fleet is in retreat. People are dancing in the streets, fireworks go off everywhere, the Rebels have WON.
...jump forward 20 years and without any explanation the old Rebel Alliance is still an underground guerilla force fighting against the Empire-with-a-reskin-First-Order. What? Why? WTF happened? That makes no sense, they WON, why are they still hiding in secret bases?
Contrast this with the Zahn novels where the setting is that the Rebel Alliance formed the New Republic but the Empire managed to hold onto a substantial chunk of the old territory. They're no longer all-powerful, but they're still a significant force and it's more than just "mopping up". Insert Thrawn to give them some backbone and now you've got a plausible enemy and a lot of room to write interesting stories.
The Zahn setting makes logical sense, the new trilogy doesn't. Even worse by effectively ignoring the significance of the ending of RotJ and leaving everything basically the way it was, they cheapen the story that was told before. Many Bothans died to bring about the destruction of the second Death Star and the Empire, dammit! :)
This is a huge complaint I have with the basic premise of Alien 3 as well, the casual off-screen killing of Newt and Hicks renders all of the sacrifices of the second movie pointless.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:My biggest problem with the ep 7-9 trilogy is more fundamental than the writing for the characters, it's the whole premise of the setting.
At the end of RotJ the Emperor is (seemingly) killed, Vader is dead, the second Death Star is destroyed and the Imperial Fleet is in retreat. People are dancing in the streets, fireworks go off everywhere, the Rebels have WON.
...jump forward 20 years and without any explanation the old Rebel Alliance is still an underground guerilla force fighting against the Empire-with-a-reskin-First-Order. What? Why? WTF happened? That makes no sense, they WON, why are they still hiding in secret bases?
Contrast this with the Zahn novels where the setting is that the Rebel Alliance formed the New Republic but the Empire managed to hold onto a substantial chunk of the old territory. They're no longer all-powerful, but they're still a significant force and it's more than just "mopping up". Insert Thrawn to give them some backbone and now you've got a plausible enemy and a lot of room to write interesting stories.
The Zahn setting makes logical sense, the new trilogy doesn't. Even worse by effectively ignoring the significance of the ending of RotJ and leaving everything basically the way it was, they cheapen the story that was told before. Many Bothans died to bring about the destruction of the second Death Star and the Empire, dammit! :)
This is a huge complaint I have with the basic premise of Alien 3 as well, the casual off-screen killing of Newt and Hicks renders all of the sacrifices of the second movie pointless.
Yes to all of this.
BTW, Grievous is apparently not Force sensitive.
Kylo is one of the reasons why I don't feel bad about having - still - not seen the last movie.
IMHO:
Kylo Ren and Rey could have been great characters but got lost in a pointless trilogy of random plot lines.
Anakin was a great character ruined by poor acting and kinda cheesy acting. (His character works so much better in the Clone Wars series)
Anakin/Vader was a badass, but his weakness was in thinking he was unbeatable just because he was powerful.
minivan_racer said:Let's face it Luke had no business being a teacher. He received little to no instruction and was vulnerable to his emotions, hence his actions against Ben. Then he was lured to the Dark Side by what turned out to be a bad science experiment who was such a poor force user that he couldn't pick up on Kylo's betrayal even after picking up on Rey's "awakening". Yet he was still a competent force user just with limit use and had above average light saber skill (keeping in mind he was wounded during his fight in the woods).
This is the problem with Disney tossing all of the extended universe. (and then that dumbass in charge claims that they don't have any background material, which is why the sequels sucked so much. Dumbass)
Luke, and Leia, both got much more training than was shown in the movies. At one point Luke actually turns to the dark side, helps Palpatine and then comes back to the light with Leia's help.
Luke definitely had the chops to be a teacher before the Mouse chopped his character up so much.
That did not make sense. The Rebel Alliance won and yet they did not develop into a new government with a new armed force. The characters didn't develop either. Han Solo is the same walking mess he was in the first series only even more so because now he is in his 60s now doing the same get rich quick crap he was doing in his younger pirate days. I envisioned a story where "General Solo" is dealing in the construction of new star destroyers that can never be built right or on time and shrugs and one point to say "It was so much easier being a pirate." I could see Princess Leia as the new leader of the council on Courusent complaining about never having time to see Han or to check out the goings on at the rebuilt Jedi Temple where Brother Luke is having his own problems finding new Jedis to train while arguing with a willful and rebellious Ben Solo, only to have Yoda tell him that he was once much like Ben. Meanwhile, in dark corner of the galaxy away from this New Republic, an angry deformed outlaw is fooling around with newly found Sith holocrons and wondering what he can learn from them....
BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter) said:IMHO:
Kylo Ren and Rey could have been great characters but got lost in a pointless trilogy of random plot lines.
Anakin was a great character ruined by poor acting and kinda cheesy acting. (His character works so much better in the Clone Wars series)
Anakin/Vader was a badass, but his weakness was in thinking he was unbeatable just because he was powerful.
One of my problems with Rey is actually mirrored and exacerbated in Mulan. Rey doesn't really have any character arc. She has no struggle to overcome. They kind of try and give her one with her search for her family but it just doesn't do anything. There's no real fight to master her powers, she just... does. She picks up a lightsaber and doesn't cut anything off, doesn't learn how to use it by having a little floating robot shoot her while she wears a helmet, she just starts swinging it.
Mulan is even worse. Literally no struggle at all, she's born a badass and that's it.
There's a commentary there on what is going on in Disney studios' boardrooms, but I won't go into that.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
We talking about the live action Mulan or the original here?
In reply to Mr_Asa :
Rey as a character did nothing for me, for many of the reasons you just outlined. Remember when she hopped into the derelict Falcon and not only did it start right up but she was immediately able to fly it like Maverick? Yeah.
In reply to bigdaddylee82 :
Man, he was such a great villain. Apparently he had more written for him after he became a fan favorite. I never watched ds9 and only saw it when it was on amazon. Great show, great characters, but Dukat was the best.
Mr_Asa said: There's a commentary there on what is going on in Disney studios' boardrooms, but I won't go into that.
That's a bold statement to just leave hanging, but we don't need no patios over this thread so i'll accept it as it is. IMHO Leia was never your run of the mill "damsel in distress" and her chutzpah for lack of a better term is what endeared her character to so many. She was a ride or die chick before the term was coined. The biggest problem with the franchise is there are so many stories out there in the EU that fans know and love and Disney just chose to E36 M3 all over that and throw it away in pursuit of easy $. So of course the sequel storylines are contrived and borderline incoherent, they really didn't care about the story, just bring the legacy characters back for fan service before they croak and set up a new plot to carry the franchise into the future because of the boneheaded decision to retroactively erase literally the vast majority of viable storylines by declaring them non-canon because they couldn't get the rights to those properties (I presume, they probably didn't even try because they didn't want to spend the $). FWIW, i liked the sequel trilogy, but I tend to suspend disbelief when i watch this stuff anyway. The running out of fuel storyline from TLJ did piss me off though, they wait until the next-to-last movie in the series to casually through out the ideal that the rebel ships were out of gas? Yet they never ran out before... Yeah, right..
Comment and question: I also thought Greivous was an amazing villain. I have been told by some geeks about his back story. I think he could have had a stand alone movie and it would have been memorable, but is is very close to Vaders.
What I could never figure out was how Kylo was asking for guidance from his grandfather, Vader. Vader turned from the dark side at the end of his life. Why would you ask for guidance from him if you wanted to go to the dark side. I'm not as into star wars, so I don't know if this is something already explained.
In reply to thedoc :
Well, ostensibly Vader was the most well known Sith, and thought to be the most powerful aside from the Emperor (Palpatine), but you have uncovered another plot hole that Lucasfilm has decided not to fill, or should I say, attempted to fill with a clone (Snoke). I'm hoping the Mandolorian will continue to fill in some gaps, Filioni has done a great job with it so far, at least I think so.
EDIT: The more I think about it, Anakin (Vader) was seduced to the dark side, he did not seek it out but was manipulated by Palpatine who used his fear of losing Padme against him. So, Kylo asking for guidance from the ghost of Vader was pointless to anyone who knows the story. Perhaps it was done to show how negligent his parents and Luke were in raising him, or how successful Snoke was in manipulating him as Palps (Snoke's progenitor) did Anakin. IDK, probably the Mango wit talkin. 
Duke said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
Rey as a character did nothing for me, for many of the reasons you just outlined. Remember when she hopped into the derelict Falcon and not only did it start right up but she was immediately able to fly it like Maverick? Yeah.
Rey just didn't make sense. I liked her but I didn't like how easy everything was for her.
ok, I am sorry to geek out, but you guys started it. The Falcon starting up, and the old starship starting up in the last Star Trek movie was the absolute worse. You have these complicated space ships and they just all work? They should at least hire that guy from wisconsin who drives derelect cars out of fields.
BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Mr_Asa :
We talking about the live action Mulan or the original here?
Live action, the original was fairly decent if you ignore the Disney-ification of the original story
The Mandolorian has saved Star Wars. Episodic story telling suits its universe much better. Rebels, Clone Wars, etc. All so much better than the "core" movies. Even Solo and Rogue One were far better.
One of the things that frustrated me was that the Skywalker Saga was just that, Anakin, Luke, Leia. It wasn't, nor did it need to be about Palpatine, but that's what it became. We literally got "The Palpatine Saga".
Now, maybe thats what they are aiming for, because having a bad guy that lasts for a century requires a few generations of good guys to end his reign.
Vader was a better villain. The first six movies covered his fall and redemption.
Kylo was not a villain. He was somebody who never fell all of the way, he just had a particularly strong emo phase.
The REAL problem with the movies is that they weren't allowed to get too dark because they weren't trying to make incredible movies, they were making a space opera that kids could watch.
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:The REAL problem with the movies is that they weren't allowed to get too dark because they weren't trying to make a marketing machine to promote toys that kids would want.
FTFY
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) (Forum Supporter) said:Boba Fett was the best villain. (until they gave the stupid backstory that he was every stormtrooper in the Clone Wars)
Fett is a non-starter if all you go on is the movies. Doesn't do anything. Dies like bitch. He is legend from the books and comics that followed. Until I read a few, I never understood the fascination.
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