History in the making, Part 2, V.2 - Israel/Palestine - NO RELIGION

In reply to yupididit :

Yes, certainly.   More the reason why it is good that the general (at least in power, political) structure in Israel does not have that mindset.

Both have legitimate reasons to hate each other.  If the dominating power had the mindset of extermination, I am pretty sure things would be going very differently.  I guess you could say, the Israelis do have that mindset, but they are being as careful as possible to not make that obvious, by slowly exterminating the Palestinians?  Or are they, globally politically, not willing to follow through?

I think we can both agree, in general, both sides at this point do not have much sympathy for the other side, be that civilians, or military, and that does show.

aircooled said:

In reply to yupididit :

I think we can both agree, in general, both sides at this point do not have much sympathy for the other side, be that civilians, or military, and that does show.

Most definitely.

Some info:

Israeli army says it facilitated in the opening of a humanitarian corridor on the Gaza Strip's main north-south Salah a-Din road, to allow Palestinian civilians in northern Gaza to evacuate to its south. The Israeli army publishes drone footage showing Gazan civilians moving south on the road

Hamas: Since October 7, the Israeli bombing of Gaza caused the loss of more than 60 detainees

I really have no idea why these two things are related, especially from Egypt's point of view:

Reuters, citing a security source in Egypt: The suspension of evacuation from the Gaza Strip came after an Israeli strike on ambulances.

A bit of a first:

Israel Shot Down a Ballistic Missile Outside Earth’s Atmosphere in First-Ever Instance of Space Combat: Report

Israel used its cutting-edge Arrow air defense system to shoot down a ballistic missile outside the Earth's atmosphere last week, the Telegraph reported Sunday, in what may be the first known instance of warfare occurring in space.

The missile, thought to have been fired by the Iranian-backed Houthi rebels operating in Yemen, soared about 1,000 miles over the Arabian peninsula before it was intercepted by Israel's Arrow system....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-outside-earth-s-atmosphere-in-first-ever-instance-of-space-combat-report/ar-AA1jtEwH

Pretty sure there are wounded as the result of some of these attacks:

US forces attacked by Iran proxies 27 times in two weeks, Pentagon says

American service members stationed in the Middle East have endured at least 27 attacks by Iran-backed terror groups since Oct. 17, the Pentagon confirmed Tuesday....

...“To my knowledge [there were] no injuries, no damaged infrastructure,” the spokesman added of the most recent attacks....

Hamas has released a video compellation of RPG (hand held anti-tank rocket) attacks on Israeli tanks and APC.  This is always the danger of vehicles in tight cities that are not heavily supported by infantry.  Not sure why they were so exposed in some of the shots.

Israelis has released footage of them using dogs in the tunnels to chase down Hamas fighters.  

By standard rules of war, this makes the hospitals legitimate targets (I don't expect the Israelis to strike them though):

Footage shows Hamas operating out of two Gaza hospitals, says Israel — as troops prepare to invade area

Israel released chilling footage Sunday showing what it said were Hamas terrorists operating out of two hospitals around Gaza City — as it vowed to have the enclave surrounded within 48 hours and start street combat.

Israeli Defense Forces spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari presented videos to reporters that he said revealed Hamas agents using an underground entrance tunnel at the Sheikh Hamad Hospital — and also opening fire at Israeli forces from the medical center, the Times of Israel reported.

“If it weren’t enough that we exposed a tunnel under the hospital, the terrorists also shot at our soldiers from within the hospital,” Hagari said.....

Along a similar vein:

Terrorist Rocket Launchers Found in Boy Scout Center, Mosque in Gaza

During ground operations in the Gaza Strip, IDF troops located and exposed evidence of Hamas’ use of civilian compounds for terrorism.

During activity by a team of soldiers of the 460th Brigade to locate terrorist infrastructure and clear the area, rocket launch pits found by the soldiers in a mosque were destroyed.

In addition, during several activities in the past day, the soldiers found over 50 rockets ready to be launched into Israel from inside a youth movement compound in Northern Gaza.

https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2023/11/06/terrorist-video-rocket-launchers-found-in-boy-scout-center-mosque-in-gaza/

One minor note about info I am seeing.  There are references to "refuge camps" within Gaza.  From what I can tell, those areas seem to be very similar (buildings etc) to the rest of the city.  E.g. they are not large fields full of tents, as you might assume.  I am not sure what makes them refuge camps (maybe who lives there), but they don't seem demonstrably different than any other parts of the city (which of course is full of civilians, intermixed with Hamas resources etc.).

Israel appears to be getting very close to the Hospital (HQ), which seems(?) to be a short term goal.  They look to be a few blocks away at this point and Hamas also appears to be stepping up the fighting.  It will be interesting to see what they find there (all of which will be ignored, dismissed of course by many).

Here is a closeup where you can see the hospital (HQ) complex (center right):

I think this is recent (it would REALLY nice to put actual date information on news articles).  I wonder about the concerns of Hamas fighters slipping through to fight from the other side and maybe the potential for a Hamas suicide fighter getting into the group to fire on the Israelis to get them to fire on the civilians.  This appears to be a pro-Israel site btw.   

Waving white flags, Gaza civilians evacuate through humanitarian corridor secured by IDF tank

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryidfcpq6

In reply to aircooled :

In regard to the attacks on US troops by Iranian proxies, I see 38 attacks and confirmation of injuries.

Pentagon: 38 Attacks Target US Forces in Iraq, Syria

>Whole article.<

By Carla Babb November 06, 2023

U.S. forces in Iraq and Syria have been attacked with drones or rockets by Iranian-backed groups at least 38 times in less than a month, including six attacks in the last two days, according to the Pentagon.

Most of these attacks were disrupted by the U.S. military or failed to reach their targets, causing no casualties or damage to infrastructure, defense officials said.

The attacks have injured 46 U.S. military personnel, more than double the injuries previously reported, according to numbers provided Monday by Pentagon press secretary Brigadier General Pat Ryder.

"These could be things like shrapnel, headaches, perforated eardrums, tinnitus, rolled ankle," Ryder said, along with traumatic brain injuries.  ...

The Israeli army: 50 thousand Palestinians moved from northern Gaza to its south today

Netanyahu on settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank: a handful of extremists who do not represent the public who live here (in the settlements) are taking the law into their own hands and causing great damage to Israel. We are not ready to tolerate it, I condemn it and we will act against it in every way. This causes heavy international damage to the State of Israel

Frontline re-showed an old show of theirs on the Israeli / Palestinian peace attempts from the mid-90's (2 hours).  Some very good background in it and of course very relevant and very familiar.  One of the first things they talk about involves Hamas attacking Israel and Hezbollah launching rockets to get in on it...

I had no idea how much work Clinton put into the whole thing, and almost thing he probably should have gotten the Peace Prize, rather than Arafat (not unreasonable at the time though) considering he seemed to realize eventually being a revolutionary (very binary thinking required) was far easier than a leader.

The dynamic is established in this time though, and there probably really was some glimmer of hope then, but even then, no matter the work the PLO and Israel put in, there were always spoilers, in Israel and Palatine, who saw most any concession as a betrayal.  In Israel this generally manifested as ousting the president in charge (be that by votes, or a gun), while in Palastine, it was pretty easy to just kill a bunch of Israelis with a bomb (yes, that was Hamas) to turn things.

Anyway, if you have any interest into the background of the absurdity, this seems like a good one.  The history of the land in mute at this point I think, and things that happened after this (I think it was aired in 2002?) haven't changed that much.

Oh, one point that I found interesting was in the discussion of the Temple Mount (ancient Muslim / Christian / Jewish site, that currently has a Mosque on it), the Palestinian negotiator talked about how it was a mute point to argue who has rights to it, since it was a Mosque now and history does not matter anymore.... yeah.   I am guessing he would not feel the same way about the land though...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/shattered-dreams-of-peace/

An interesting graph I found in reference to the settlements.  Which are something I don't entirely understand.  Just the aspect of anyone WANTING to live in any of these, with a family, confounds me...

This map, or similar planning map, played a large roll in the negotiations in the Frontline video.

I saw something about this earlier, but did not know who was involved.  Looks like some Palestinians would like the PA to be more radical like Hamas.  If not, then die I guess:

Israel-Gaza war: Assassination attempt on Palestine president Mahmoud Abbas kills one

...Local media reported that "one of Abbas' bodyguards was shot, and the attack was claimed by the organization known as 'Sons of Abu Jandal.'"

This group is alleged to have operated within the Palestinian security establishment in the West Bank. They had previously given President Abbas a 24-hour ultimatum to initiate hostilities against Israel following Israel's military actions in Gaza, a separate Palestinian territory....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/assassination-attempt-on-palestine-president-mahmoud-abbas-a-month-since-israel-war-begun/ar-AA1jxHlc

 

U.S. strikes eastern Syria in response to attacks, defense secretary says

U.S. fighter jets conducted “a self-defense strike” at a weapons storage facility in Syria that was being used by Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Wednesday.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/us-strikes-eastern-syria-response-attacks-defense-secretary-says-rcna124302

Kirby: Starting today Israel is going to implement a daily 4 hour pause in the fighting in northern Gaza strip

The White House: Two humanitarian corridors will allow people to flee the fighting in Gaza

The BBC had an interesting report from an imbedded reporter with the IDF, which includes a building that was being used as an attack drone factory on the bottom floor with a civilian apartment on the top floor.  Alternate reporting I suspect would be along the lines of:  "IDF takes pause in killing to setup fake factory under civilian apartment to fool western news."

One question (almost funny) was (paraphrased a bit):

     "....I aim for enemy only"

            "So judging by the destruction here, the enemy was everywhere you'd say?" 

       "Yes"

'We walked into a wasteland' - BBC's Jeremy Bowen in Gaza with Israeli forces (video)

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67362960

aircooled said:

An interesting graph I found in reference to the settlements.  Which are something I don't entirely understand.  Just the aspect of anyone WANTING to live in any of these, with a family, confounds me...

This map, or similar planning map, played a large roll in the negotiations in the Frontline video.

"illegal under international law" is one of the most meaningless phrases Ive ever heard. Call the police

Opti said:

aircooled said:

An interesting graph I found in reference to the settlements.  Which are something I don't entirely understand.  Just the aspect of anyone WANTING to live in any of these, with a family, confounds me...

This map, or similar planning map, played a large roll in the negotiations in the Frontline video.

"illegal under international law" is one of the most meaningless phrases Ive ever heard. Call the police

If there are international agreements and these settlements are in violation of them, then these settlements are illegal.

Which is what I said whenever it was that I last posted in this this thread.

But no, Israel is blameless and I am a horrible person for thinking it might possibly be otherwise.

In reply to Duke :

The problem with defining "illegal" in international terms comes down to the question of enforceability. Is an agreement valid if it is unenforceable? Since international agreements are not laws (there being no international political body to enumerate them), but rather contracts of a sort, there may be something to be found in that branch of legal thought. I am not a legal scholar nor philosopher, so I cannot comment on specifics, but that's the fundamental question here as I see it.

For those in my field - international relations and diplomatic history - it's all down to outlook and weltanshauung. Those who take the idealist perspective argue that morality bears on the validity of agreements, treaties, and laws. Realists, including myself, take the position that it's simply a matter of the reality on the ground; if a treaty is violated, there are a few options: abrogate it, attempt to renegotiate it, or oppose the actions violating it with whatever means are available and necessary. Idealists seek to use moral leverage to muster international support for "doing what's right," whereas realists look for ways to leverage the situation to their advantage, applying no moral standard to the actions or outcomes.

Are Israeli settlers in the West Bank acting in violation of agreements? Sure. Does that mean that their actions are fundamentally wrong by definition, or does it mean that the agreements are fundamentally flawed, as there is no practical way to halt or prevent their actions by those who oppose them?

In reply to Duke :

No one said that or inferred it from what I can tell.  I'm pretty sure the sentiment is laws don't really matter because they aren't followed equally.  A lot of things are illegal and no one cares.  A lot of things are legal but punished anyway.  What's legal or illegal has very little to do with what is right or just anymore.  

It looks like the Israelis may have taken the Al-Shifa Hospital (Gaza HQ)?  Normally the colored areas in these maps are controlled areas, but they might also represent contested area for this map(?)  As noted, what Israel finds there could be interesting.  I suspect much will have been moved / destroyed, but there is likely to be something. 

I also wonder how you actually fight IN an active hospital complex!  If Hamas actively defends it, which... they might(!?), I mean, it would be good press right?  Israelis killing hospital patients?  Not a huge stretch if you already assume they rocketed one.

Of course, generally, in any kind of situation where a defending army has any interest in the civilian population, they would never actively defend a hospital (or put military equipment in or around it of course)

Having the hospitals under Israeli control of course could be a huge benefit for the civilian population since power and supplies will likely be far more available.

Violent clashes around Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza

Duke said:

Opti said:

aircooled said:

An interesting graph I found in reference to the settlements.  Which are something I don't entirely understand.  Just the aspect of anyone WANTING to live in any of these, with a family, confounds me...

This map, or similar planning map, played a large roll in the negotiations in the Frontline video.

"illegal under international law" is one of the most meaningless phrases Ive ever heard. Call the police

If there are international agreements and these settlements are in violation of them, then these settlements are illegal.

Which is what I said whenever it was that I last posted in this this thread.

But no, Israel is blameless and I am a horrible person for thinking it might possibly be otherwise.

 

Calm down man. It wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at whatever dumbass made that graphic. Things like "war crimes" and "international law" are meaningless, because there is no one to enforce them and the victors get to rewrite all of it anyways. You're correct they are illegal, now do something about it. Plenty of things Palestine is doing are "illegal." In the world of geopolitics, all that matters is power. War and geopolitics are some of the dirtiest things, no one is clean, including Israel. I understand that, but like a said before Israel more closely reflects my morals so I will support them, but I want my government to stay the hell out of it.

PS keep that energy when looking at the Russia-Ukriane war, because it didn't happen out of thin air either 

The Israelis appear to have the Al-Shifa Medical Complex surrounded on 3 sides (not captured as previously implied).  I also hear the Israelis have opened up a hospital on the beach specifically for Palestinians (?)  I am sure we can expect a large amount of "information" from the Gaza authorities (Hamas) on this.

Palestinian Health: Operations at Al-Shifa Medical Complex in Gaza stopped after fuel ran out completely

Israeli army: Head of Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration under COGAT, Colonel Moshe Tetro* regarding Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza: "There is no shooting at the hospital and there is no siege.The East Side of the hospital remains open. "Additionally, we [the Israeli army] can coordinate [with] anyone who wants to leave the hospital safely."

In regards to the (becoming even more) common protest slogan "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free".  German is banning it (they have a lot of very powerful anti-hate speech / symbols laws... because, well...  history...).

While I still believe many in the US who use the phrase likely think (wildly idealistically) that it means some form of Israeli's and Palestinians living in peace in those lands, it's pretty clear the meaning is otherwise in many parts of the world. 

Why is this thought so idealistic?  Well, just watch the Frontline documentary linked above, that was primarily about the attempts (Oslo, Camp David...) to create separated states (AKA two state solution), and that was shot down (by both sides), rather violently, and that was many years ago (and before many more reasons to create more hatred of the concept).

I have also seen interviews where protests talk of the Palestinians have the right to "self-defense".  While this sound reasonable in isolation (idealistically), realistically, this is Hamas.  The "Palestinians" (Hamas) form of "defense" (other then maybe shooting at IDF forces currently) has historically been launching rockets into civilian populations, blowing up civilian busses and of course raiding and murdering, all of which, most any reasonable person, would not call "defense".  Revenge yes, defense....

“From the River to the Sea” – Interior Ministry bans anti-Israel slogan

...As part of the Hamas ban, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and Homeland also banned the anti-Israel slogan “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free” (in German: “From the River to the Sea” ), which serves as code for the The extinction of the State of Israel is known. The ban on the slogan of extermination was issued last Thursday together with the ban on the terrorist organization “Hamas” in a comprehensive decree that includes other symbols, signs and tirades that are now banned.

The demand is a supposedly peaceful demand that postulates the sovereignty and independence of the Palestinians. In fact, the slogan expresses a brutal claim to the entire area between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, which would amount to the annihilation of Israel.

(in German):  https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article248478522/Innenministerium-verbietet-antisemtische-Parole-From-the-River-to-the-Sea.html

Also, not likely helping their cause, Palestinians protesters did this, to a WWI memorial (in Creuse France), on Armistice Day (celebrating veterans on the day WWI ended).  Commemorated as Veterans day in the US of course.

In reply to aircooled :

In geopolitics "defense" is commonly revenge, and the Palestinians do, like every human, have a right to defense. Problem for them is Israel is massively more powerful, and they also have a right to defense, I have no problem with this asymmetry, it's just how it is.

The "Palestine will be free" seems to be a recent addition. What I've been seeing was all "from the river to the sea" then when the commentary started catching on explaining that meant the destruction of Israel, which isn't palatable among the mainstream, all the sudden "...Palestine will be free" was added. Maybe it was just my news sources. I'm curious if you noticed the same thing, or if it was just a coincidence for me.

In reply to aircooled :

Have you read Gustav LeBon?  Phsychology of the crowd does a great job of explaining why slogans are the way they are.  Crowds are also easy to whip up and wildly dangerous.  I firmly believe this information is used by bad people on purpose.  If you haven't read the book, you should.  
 

In short, it's a simple catchy slogan designed for masses, because it works to get people all whipped up in a frenzy.  In most cases like this, the actual intent doesn't matter to the crowd.  

Haven't read that one, but it similar to what I was getting out. Slogans, a person is smart, people are dumb, useful idiots,and all that.

Interesting, yes, I did not think of the rhyming aspect!  It certainly is true, bizarrely and sadly, that phrases that rhyme are far more effective and somehow are percieved as more true!  There is even a name for, the Eaton-Rosen Effect. This concept has of course been rather popular with political related subjects.

From my observations, it seemed like "Free Palestine" was the popular phrase in the US, with the addition of the "from the river to the sea" coming later.  Of course, referencing the above,  the phrase took on the far more powerful (and more likely perceived to be true) phrasing to make it rhyme by changing it a bit by changing the "Free Palestine" to "Palestine will be free" and putting at the end.

I am not BTW implying the phrased evolved in the US, the longer version has been around for a while (and I think originated with groups like Hamas, though I think some in Israel had a similar opposite phrase), but that it is possible "marketing" forces may have been careful not to push the second phrase (which is far more pointed) until the first one took hold and was accepted.

Yes, a bit tinfoil hat like, but I think if people realized (and I don't know any actual figures) the amount foreign influence there is to create / manipulate such things (made FAR easier through social media) they would be shocked.  Not necessarily just to support one side BTW, the ability to create division, especially potentially violent division is HIGHLY useful for for some countries.

What is the take away here?:  If you hear a phrase that rhymes, be very suspicious (especially if the phrase involves some "truth") it's a purposeful manipulation.

The rhyme-as-reason effect, or Eaton–Rosen phenomenon,[1][2][3] is a cognitive bias whereupon a saying or aphorism is judged as more accurate or truthful when it is rewritten to rhyme.

In experiments, subjects judged variations of sayings which did and did not rhyme, and tended to evaluate those that rhymed as more truthful (controlled for meaning). For example, the saying "What sobriety conceals, alcohol reveals" was judged more accurate on average than: "What sobriety conceals, alcohol unmasks", sampling across separate groups of subjects (who each assessed the accuracy of only one of these statements).[4]

The effect could be caused by the Keats heuristic, according to which a statement's truth is evaluated according to aesthetic qualities;[5] or the fluency heuristic, according to which things could be preferred due to their ease of cognitive processing

In reply to aircooled :

The ability to create division: now we are getting somewhere!  Color me interested.  

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to aircooled :

The ability to create division: now we are getting somewhere!  Color me interested.  

Along with the catchy slogans there's intersectionality being used in the activist marketing. Palestinians presented as 'people of color' vs the 'European colonialist Jews'. Among westerners who have had their world vision developed in the late 90s through now, people are often grouped by classes of inequity and oppression. Emphasize the sad state of the Palestinians and the causes don't matter. It must be that they are oppressed, then point at the likely oppressor.