Home A/C Repair or Replace Questions

I have a condo that is just over 20 years old and still has the original HVAC equipment. The thermostat is stupid - cannot program a schedule - only tell it to either cool, heat or off and then what temp you want to maintain. The renter only uses the place every once in awhile and in the summers the A/C has been icing up on hot days. I had the tech come out and inspect last week. He says it's about a pound low on refrigerant and that normally he would not recommend topping off but in this case he thinks I would only spend a few hundred instead of replacing the entire unit for $1,000's +. But the dudes in the office overruled him because they can't/won't buy R22 anymore.

Is it really true that a home A/C system cannot be converted off R22 and that the physical equipment must be replaced? (why?) Is it possible for me to buy my own R22 and do the top-off myself? I'd like to do this on the cheap this year as I have a HUGE tax bill I have to pay and a kitchen to remodel.

And would it help me (the condo) limp by if I put a better thermostat on - so that the AC can shut off during the night and give it a chance to de-ice?

Not an AC expert whatsoever,  but I do know the pressures with r22 and r410a are extremely different. R410 is a much higher pressure than what your equipment can handle. You could fill it yourself, but you'll need r22 (which isn't cheap), as well as hoses and gauges. 

That solution is a leaking bandaid. The system obviously has a leak, so it is going to leak again. If you're comfortable with that, I'd find another shop that will fill it. I had mine filled, and 2 days later it was out again. They did fill it though, and credited me that on the cost or the new unit. 

We have a leak in ours - I suspect it's the evap coil - so I have to have them come out every 18-24 months to top it off.  If the leak is slow enough, it's just cheaper to keep filling it rather than chase the leak.  Or, heaven forbid, replace the whole thing.

I'd find a shop that's willing and able to top it off with the old stuff and see how long that gets you.

Find a different repair company. I carry R22 on my truck for just such jobs. Not every situation justifies a full replacement system. Sometimes a pound or two of gas will help the customer get another season out of their equipment.

There are drop in R22  replacements available too. The company I work for does not use them since R22 is still available but I know they're out there. You would need an EPA 608 certification to buy any of these products and further you'd be challenged to find a supply house to sell it to you since you're not a licensed contractor. Every one I know of would turn you away for that reason alone. HVAC has quite a wall around the business to protect from smart homeowners circumventing using a pro for their work. I'm not saying it's right, but it reality. 

wae said:

We have a leak in ours - I suspect it's the evap coil - so I have to have them come out every 18-24 months to top it off.  If the leak is slow enough, it's just cheaper to keep filling it rather than chase the leak.  Or, heaven forbid, replace the whole thing.

I'd find a shop that's willing and able to top it off with the old stuff and see how long that gets you.

Same here, just had a tech out today. It was $167 for a 1-man operation vs. over 2x a year ago for one of the bigger HVAC places in the area. 

Our guy just topped off both our heat pumps with 6lbs of the r-22 replacement and it cost $600.  His company doesn't even try to get R-22 anymore.  Our units are 13 and 14 years old and need charging every once in a while.  

300 bucks gets you 5lbs of R22 on Ebay, a set of gauges should be around $50.  If you can read, you can cook.

Or you can evac the system and charge it off R290 which in any other terminology is propane.

Food for thought, I just put two split systems into a rental property for $3k. The bedrooms on the third floor never got enough heat or AC from the furnace through a system of ducts designed in 1890 or whatever. Its not a whole-house solution, but for a small property you can strategically put one in the bedroom and one in the living room and get decent coverage. You can also save $ by not cooling every square inch. 

The service manager for this specific company says that they can't get any R22 or they would top it off for me. I'm in Southern Oregon if that matters. Does anyone know if it's possible that they really can't? Or is he just blowing smoke up my arse?

I would definitely look hard at replacing the system:

• Get a hold of your local utility for the property and see if they offer any deals to subsidize your swapping that system out for a much more energy efficient unit.
• Going to a new system will save you (or the renter depending on who pays the utility bill) money long term and can be coupled with a fancy thermosat. But beware that the thermostat usage will only be of value if the renter adopts the new way of managing it. Some have used those smart Nest learning units but I have heard people think it is sort of like landlords spying on them.
• Get some quotes to see what the real cost would be.

Regarding your service managers position. They CAN get R-22 but it is a significant expense and administrative overhead they probably don't want to pay for. They need to contract with a regulated recycler/stockpiler of r-22 and probably have to track it at a much more stringent level. So if they set themselves up as a business that will not deal in the R-22 world anymore then that is a valid business decision. As other's have posted you can find companies that do still work in that arena but be aware it is going to shrink.

Locally there may be some regulation that prohibits HVAC companies to simply refill an R22 system without documenting a leak detect and fix. 

So in short. Don't blast on your contractor for trying to focus on more environmentally and financially viable business decisions. Look at replacement to get out of this concern going forward and to save some utilities costs. 

I've been in this house 20 years.  In that time I've replaced both heat pumps.  One of the replacements has been in service about 10 years, and it's already needed to be topped off.  These units are all designed to crap out in a surprisingly short amount of time.  My first two were Carrier.  The replacements are Trane and Lennox.  So far, the Lennox has been good.  I had to put a contactor in it a while back, but that's pretty much routine maintenance.

The issue seems to be that the manufacturer chooses to use dissimilar metals in the indoor coils, and they corrode their way into oblivion in about ten years.  The cost of replacement is nearly the same as the cost of a new system.  Shouldn't be, but it is.

Twenty years in, I'd count myself lucky and bite the bullet, but if you can find someone to top it off, there's a good chance you can postpone that expense for a year.

Here in Texas R22 is still available at most any supply house. I carry 22 and 410 on my truck every day.

There are no laws prohibiting topping up a leaking residential system. You just have to part with the money for the freon.

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) said:

Here in Texas R22 is still available at most any supply house. I carry 22 and 410 on my truck every day.

There are no laws prohibiting topping up a leaking residential system. You just have to part with the money for the freon.

 

100% agree with everything you wrote. 

There are also no laws prohibiting a company from choosing to no longer work with r22. Just like if an auto repair shop down the road from any of us decided to no longer work on Non-electric cars.

It is just a choice for Sparkdog to make. Find a company that will do r22, upgrade the controls only, or move away from r22 to a new system and upgraded controls. 

We’re in the commercial end of the business.  R22 is available but as it is no longer in production and only available as a recycled product it is priced as a commodity.   We’re seeing prices in excess of $60.00 per pound currently.  Similar price spikes happened in the past when R12, R11 and other chlorine based refrigerants were phased out in the 1990’s, R22 won’t be getting any less expensive.

It’s absolutely allowable to add refrigerant to top off a charge, the OP’s description is in line with a system that is slightly short of charge / very slow leak. With that said the clock is ticking and if the OP is planning on keeping the property for the long term I’d second the advice to look into utility rebate programs and upgrade the system. 

This is only the beginning, many of our current refrigerants will be phased out in the coming years as global warming potential is factored in.  There’s another whole sea change coming and we’re all going to be affected.

One final comment.  I’ve seen a few suggestions of using propane as a refrigerant on the forum.  While it’s true it does work (as a refrigerant it’s actually very efficient) in older automotive systems and small sealed refrigeration systems it’s flammable and explosive.   It’s not compatible with the pressure/ temperature ranges of an R22 system and could potentially cause harm.  Please don’t do this.  Blowing your house up is not Grassroots.