ReverendDexter wrote: The problem with having two guns is that in the heat of the moment some cop somewhere WILL grab the wrong gun and someone will die because of it.
That happened in LA Last year. Guy was on the ground, video show's a cop sitting on him, pull out his gun and shoot him calmly in the back. Cop then looks at his gun and has an oooohhhh poop moment. Riots ensued.
Otto Maddox wrote: I am not convinced beating a kid teaches him much of anything of value.
Beating, not necessarily, but a respect for authority is an absolute must that is tragically missing. I have never had to raise a hand to my kid because she respects authority. Beating is not the only means to this end, but some parents themselves have no respect for authority and therefore impart none upon their kids.
Like it or not corporal punishment brings a very quick and deliberate message about respect for authority. My folks didnt beat me on regular occasions, the threat thereof was more than enough. But a threat without follow through is nothing and kids know that. If you are doing it right it rarely takes more than once to get the point across. But weather the punishment is physical or otherwise it must be immediate and decisive and so few parents get that. Their kids will skate by for only so long and then they will end up working for someone like me who will show them the door and they'll never even understand why.
Otto Maddox wrote: I am not convinced beating a kid teaches him much of anything of value.
It certainly teaches them that adults ultimately solve all frustrating problems with violence. Then... when they try to solve their problems that way... they get maced :)
Wife had 5 year old kick her in the belly when she was 5 months pregnant. I've never wanted to do violence to a child more than I did at that moment. Being a teacher today is not an easy task.
Here are my too rules of parenting. 1. Do what you say and say what you mean (be a good example) 2. Be involved in everything
Thats all you really need to know to be a good parent.
HiTempguy wrote:Xceler8x wrote: But come on. Barricading yourself in a room from an 8 yr old?You've obviously never seen adrenalin in action. A kid DENTED a steel (sheeted) door at a school my mom sub'd at one day. (EDIT- he was put in a room by himself until the EMT's could come as he was going KARAZY). He was only around 8-10 years old. A kid with something sharp could EASILY take an eye out. Fawk that noise, pepper spray'd biatch.
I bow to our 22 year old wisdom. Oh great and youthful master...teach me the ways of the world. BEHOLD! Truth from the mouths of babes who just graduated college! I am brought low by the wealth of hard fought experience. Humbled in the face of omnipotence know as the early twenties.
Speak o'great master of life. 
(Btw - don't get mad. I'm just messing with you. Mostly because I'm jealous of your proximity to women who don't know what playing "Tune in Tokyo" means. They fall for that joke e-v-e-r-y time when that young.)
Oh wait. Your Mom was there. That's cool.
I still think a cop can fight an 8 year old better than a steel cabinet. But hey, what do I know?
In reply to Xceler8x:
You forget, it's in our teenage years that we know everything. Best to keep a teenager handy for times like this.
I am no longer a young man and I still haven't got it all figured out. And I often learn from people far younger than me.
In any case, I suspect attacking someone's opinion based purely on their age violates some sort of rules of useful debate.
Otto Maddox wrote: I am no longer a young man and I still haven't got it all figured out. And I often learn from people far younger than me. In any case, I suspect attacking someone's opinion based purely on their age violates some sort of rules of useful debate.
On this we can agree
I'm a little puzzled by all the fear-of-retribution motivations for behavior adjustment. My folks were nice to me, and generally instilled a sense of how much better everything works when you try to get along. I wasn't a perfect angel, but I don't think fear of physical pain would have improved my decision making skills. (No, I'm not suggesting that this is some sort of universal answer; just that retribution probably doesn't fit every kid either)
Seems like a lot of this conversation is about when it's already gone wrong.
EDIT: Just felt like I should cop to not having any kids and not wanting any. I.e. this isn't based on practical experience except from the kid's side.
Not being able to lay any hand on a student can be frustrating as a teacher. There have been situations where I've told a kid (5th-6th grade) he needs to go to the office to sit, and the kid has blatantly refused, saying, "You can't make me."
It would have been nice to be able to take the kid by the arm and escort him to the office, but I wouldn't be allowed to do that. In my mind, that shows the kid that he doesn't have to listen to directions if he really doesn't want to, and forces me to take a bunch of time to resolve something that should only take a couple minutes.
Xceler8x wrote: I bow to our 22 year old wisdom.
Why thank you, how courteous GRM has become lately!
As I stated, it was an anecdote/example. My mom is small (5' nothing) and weighs around 130 pounds. An 8 year old COULD probably take her on. While I don't have kids of my own, I've had to look after enough of them to be amazed at how they pull off some of the crap they do. Sorry if you took my words the wrong way, but I know a lot of women that would not be able to handle that situation (8 year old with something that goes stabbity-stab) well. 
Edit- And technically, in Alberta, corporal punishment is still allowed in schools... not that you'd ever get away with it I don't think.
There's more than just if a teacher could "take on" an 8yo. If I had to, I could certainly restrain an out-of-control 8yo where I teach. However, if a kid really wanted to cause problems, I don't think I could do so without injury to them and/or myself. If I had to choose between injuring a kid or barricading them in somewhere, I'd do the later.
John Brown wrote: I have to say that earlier this year my 8 year old was acting like an A-Hole at school. I informed him politely that it would stop immediately or he would lose his "privelages". He threw a fit the next day in school. I took all of the "kids" electronics out of the house and put them in our storage unit, I took away his LEGO collection and made him read and write every night from when he got home until I got home at 7:30. A week later I let him "off" and over the course of a month he got full privelages back. He was fine for 3 months and last week he reverted. I did not get a warning, he lost all of his privelages and was reading and writing again. His penmanship is getting really good and he now reads at a 4th grade level.
The obvious problem with that method is that it associates reading and learning with punishment. I'm not saying it was the wrong method, mind you. That's sort of my point. There is no one perfect method, and those in charge need to be able to choose the appropriate method for the particular child/instance.
As a corollary, we need to both treat out educators better (so we attract the good ones) and hold them to higher standards than we often do. Because like it or not, these people are playing a large role in raising our kids.
And holding them to a higher standard does not equal automatically giving them the works when some parent complains that their precious snowflake had his/her feelings hurt or even gasp was physically touched. That's not a higher standard, that's a cop out by a weak administration.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:Otto Maddox wrote: I am not convinced beating a kid teaches him much of anything of value.It certainly teaches them that adults ultimately solve all frustrating problems with violence. Then... when they try to solve their problems that way... they get maced :)
if its done outside of any context, of course the impression they get is going to be something wrong and broken like that.
physical correction is just a tool in the kit of parenting. you use what tool works, and such a thing won't work for all kids.
Used to illustrate a consequence for actions they engage in, it can be a powerful and immediate correction. Used to vent frustration/anger of a parent without any context to correcting behavior, you're probably going to get bad results.
I just don't intellectually connect with the school of thought that summarily dismisses corporal punishment as a whole on some self-referenced ethical basis.
This is why we need to devote all of our resources to perfecting the "freeze-ray" technology. Freeze 'em when they act up and thaw 'em later when you can calmly deal with them. DONE. Problem solved. 
First off: Kids can smell BS and fear a mile away and they will take advantage of that because they just don't know any better. They look only for the short term gratification of their immediate desire, they have no judgement or concept of long term consequences because they do not have the benefit of life's experiences. Those so called parents who are afraid their kids won't like them if they discipline them or try to BS them with all that 'you make Mommy and Daddy sad' crap as a weak attempt at behavior modification are playing right into their hands.
As a parent, it's necessary to get their respect, the earlier the better. You don't have to beat them to accomplish this, just set REASONABLE boundaries and stick to them. (It also helps not to be a slobbering chronically unemployed drunk or etc but that's a subject for another thread.)
Punishment needs to be waiting in the wings if they step outside those boundaries and spankings (NOT beatings) can be an effective tool, one of many. I keep using myself and my kid as an example (becaue it's the one I am most familiar with), she has been spanked exactly three (3) times in her life and in each instance it was because she kept stepping outside the boundaries to the point where she could have hurt herself.
In my case it works best when I talk to my daughter as if she is a short adult. She responds very well to that, unlike the 'because I say so, dammit' approach. It worked even when she was a little 3 year old.
Unlike some parents I monitor what she does but I do not get involved in everything she does because she needs some things that are completely hers. I also expose her to the things I do but I don't force her to join in. She LOVES LeMons, though; she even picked our theme this year!
Otto Maddox wrote: I am not convinced beating a kid teaches him much of anything of value.
Beating? No. "Hitting"? Yes. And lets note that it is a kid you are hitting. A slight sting on the skin is enough to make him/her realize, oh, this is something I should not do again.
My brother swore in front of my mother once when he was about 10. She broke a wooden spoon over his head. He didn't swear in front of her again.
And no, I'm not a parent, I'm almost still a kid, so take what I say with that in mind.
mtn wrote:Otto Maddox wrote: I am not convinced beating a kid teaches him much of anything of value.Beating? No. "Hitting"? Yes. And lets note that it is a kid you are hitting. A slight sting on the skin is enough to make him/her realize, oh, this is something I should not do again. My brother swore in front of my mother once when he was about 10. She broke a wooden spoon over his head. He didn't swear in front of her again. And no, I'm not a parent, I'm almost still a kid, so take what I say with that in mind.
Watch out! On this board it seems ageism goes both ways lately!
Joey
I had one teacher hit me. She wacked me on the head because I didnt get something she was teaching.
I've never hated a teacher as much as I did that moment, and hate her still. She was old then, so, with luck, shes gone now.
Joey
In the interview I saw this morning he said he would kill the when he got out of the room. Maybe meeting Mr Pepper Spray at an impressionable age will help him some. http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8056701
EastCoastMojo wrote: This is why we need to devote all of our resources to perfecting the "freeze-ray" technology. Freeze 'em when they act up and thaw 'em later when you can calmly deal with them. DONE. Problem solved.
This is why we have padlocks on the outside of the closets... :)
I've never had problems with our schools. Most kids who do act up end up going home directly, and a lot of parents can't afford time off to deal with Jr just because he's feeling out of sorts. So situations like that get resolved quickly. The kids elementary school did have a great policy: paddling wasn't allowed at school (too many parents willing to sue), so they did have a policy of the fifteen minute dismissal. Jr acting up at school? Go to school, grab kid, take outside the school grounds and administer justice as you see fit. Then return the kid. I knew a few kids who did get paddled off-campus, and some who merely got the Sermon.
My kids understand that I administer justice at the house. We've never had a problem.
Wally wrote: Maybe meeting Mr Pepper Spray at an impressionable age will help him some. http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8056701
That's all I'm saying. I'm sure the cops could have subdued him without harm to anyone, I mean he's 8! But, since mom and (non-existant?) dad are unwilling or unable to teach this kid about life it's time for some chemistry lessons i.e. these chemicals will make you learn something. I gaurantee you that he will think twice before he wigs out.
Let me tell you an interesting story.
I was teaching high school a few years back. I had this student (not mine) just freaking walk into my room during class and start talking to a student.
I asked him to leave, he didnt'. I walked up to him, made eye contact and told him I needed him to leave now or I'll get the pricipal involved (the pricipal wouldn't have done much, but would have at least removed the punk). He just laughed. So I amped up the authority, and the other students in my class were saying "look man, get the fk out, Mr. P is cool." Made me feel good. So, the kid starts getting loud with me but I'm able to get him towards the door.
He's kinda carrying on at this point so I'm going to walk him to the office. We get into the commons area and he is now, officially loud. He says (very loudly for everyone to hear) "somebody get this nia outta my face or I'll kill him" (BTW, I'm fairly sure I'm a cracker). Then he told me he was goin to hit me in the face. I said "ok, but you better make it count because once you hit me I'm allowed to hit back."
The next thing I know he made a fist, but before I could even think there were about 5 or 6 kids on top of this guy, pummeling him, I didn't even realize there were kids gathering. So, as they hit him I said, in a very calm and soft voice "oh stop. Please get off of him. You are hurting him." He got worked over pretty good. When questioned I said "I tried to break up the fight, but I was afraid for my safety." The pricipal said "Good decision. You should never put yourself in physical danger."
The punk was in school because his parole officer made a deal. School or jail. Well, he was expelled......
The title of this topic is: "How about you take responsibility for your child's actions?" Take away the question mark and that's enough said.
I have witnessed many parents my age raising hellions. Those hellions are now parents and some of their kids are now parents. Unfortunately, "common sense" is dying out. A child's tendencies are to take over his envionment if no one else will. That child's motivations are likely to be very self centered unless he is TAUGHT that there are other equally important entities living in that envionment. Millions of those kids now have adult bodies and roam the earth with no conscience. I know, have met a few. The only solution is for parents to wake up and adhere to the title of this subject.
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