Boost_Crazy said:
Snip
Thank you! That is exactly the thought I was going for but I could not articulate it as well as you!
GameboyRMH said:
The first mRNA vaccines were for SARS-CoV-1 and were tested years before the current pandemic, that's why they came out so quickly - it was basically just a matter of updating those vaccines for SARS-CoV-2. If the people who got them were going to turn into Thing monsters 5 years later (about as plausible as anything else happening 5 years later), it should've happened to those test subjects by now.
Nope, the first approved mRNA vaccines were developed specifically for Covid 19. The mRNA vaccine to be tested on humans was for rabies, in 2013. (Per Wikipedia)
Fueled by Caffeine said:
https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298
"vaccines don't stop the spread" is empirically an incorrect statement. Please gather data.
"Vaccines do stop the spread" is also an empirically incorrect statement.
(if that looks dumb, sorry, I wish there was a way to multi-quote)
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
Yes, that is what he is saying, that's what stop means especially in this context. Here's an example that's relavent to this forum; I can lightly apply my brakes when I am driving and they will slow me down. They are effective at reducing my speed but they may not bring me to a stop.
Look at your data again, there is a reduction in transmission but not a stop in transmission. This is where a lot of us have distrust for the media and the medical professions in the spot light. We were told before "if you get the vaccine you won't get COVID". That statement was empirically wrong.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
I'm not saying the vaccines didn't help, just that a portion of the population was not going to make it unfortunately. Nothing more.
In reply to RacetruckRon :
And if enough people get the vaccine even at a 20% reduction in transmissibility. Then it effectively stops the spread. That's how it works. People are just so wrapped up me and I instead of we.
jmabarone said:
Nope, the first approved mRNA vaccines were developed specifically for Covid 19. The mRNA vaccine to be tested on humans was for rabies, in 2013. (Per Wikipedia)
Maybe I misremembered which virus earlier mRNA vaccines were being tested on (apparently there were a few), but as you can see there is a history of mRNA vaccines being tested many years before the first approval, and there's no history of any vaccine ever having side effects that take more than a few weeks to become detectable.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
No problem. That's why we ask for clarification instead of jumping down each other's throats.
bobzilla said:
In reply to 93EXCivic :
Thats the thing, its different for different people. Too many variables. Why do some have such a severe reaction when others don't?
My theory, not proven and I'm not a virologist: This virus was going to claim X% of lives due to DNA coding. There was going to be a certain percentage of the population that would not survive it, much like the elderly and the flu season but to a much larger scale. We may have delayed it with the lockdowns and vaccines, but a certain portion of the population was going to become ill and sadly die. It sucks hard. But nature and life suck so its to be expected.
I don't know about genetic susceptibility, but I caught an article (on NPR, I think) about some study that may show some people are less likely to have a symptomatic case. Something in their genetic coding generated T-cells when they were infected with some other coronavirus (probably a common cold) that "recognize" Covid-19 and other coronaviruses in general, so the immune system reacts more quickly to an infection, and reduces the severity.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
One data point, not that one point really means anything. But it is relevant and was quite a surprise to me. My wife and I are vaccinated. Our kids are not. We have explored the plusses and minuses of vaccinating the kids, coming to the conclusion that there wasn't much benefit or much risk, but why take any risk if not necessary. Our stance was to pay attention and re-evaluate as needed, depending on changes to the virus. We were a bit more on the fence on our 9 year old, as he has asthma, severe enough to warrant a trip to urgent care a time or two a year. He doesn't tolerate being sick and having an asthma attack at the same time very well. The discussion ended up being rendered moot as they all got Covid a few months ago. The two older kids had mild cold symptoms, our 9 year old zero symptoms at all, just the poistive tests. He recently spent a week in the hospital. Bad asthma attack, ER sent him to the childrens's hospital in Oakland via ambulance. He couldn't keep his blood O2 level up without regular breathing treatments and oxygen. No Covid, but they finally nailed it down to viral pneumonia. Seeing how bad he got, my wife asked about getting him vaccinated for Covid. Being in a childrens hospital in a part of the country that heavily pushes vaccinations for all, she was expecting to be lectured for not vaccinating him already. Instead, she was told NOT to have him vaccinated. She was told that they have had an alarming number of children with vaccine related heart conditions in the hospital. Again, just a data point, but certainly from an unexpected source. It might just be that a large number of children in the region are vaccinated, and that hospital tends to get all of the ones with heart conditions. But it does raise some doubts about potential side effects.
tuna55 said:
aircooled said:
Since you are focusing on fatalities, I believe the data (related to the latest strain) shows that death only realistically occur in those with multiple or very serious co-morbidities.
Obviously still a serious issue, but far more focused on who it is an issue for.
Can you provide some data for that? (I will see if I can find something myself)
We have Paul, who dies of Covid right before our eyes with no comorbidities. My financial advisor died with no comorbidities. My VP was on a ventilator for three days unconscious with no comorbidities. I have some real life data.
I have some data, but there is more to find. Definitely comorbidities make things worse, but the thing is that tends to make people blase. A whole lot of people have diabetes, for instance, or asthma, or hypertension, which are leading comorbidity fatalities. That doesn't mean anything really in terms of how to react. Shouldn't we care about those people too?
The first fatality I knew in March of 2020 had no comorbidities. He was a 38nyear old triathlete, went home from work on a thursday with a heavy cough and was found dead in his apartment the following tuesday.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
The first fatality I knew in March of 2020 had no comorbidities. He was a 38nyear old triathlete, went home from work on a thursday with a heavy cough and was found dead in his apartment the following tuesday.
The idea that Covid was only an issue for people with comorbidities always bothered me. More than 40% of the US has at least one comorbidity (obesity). Half of my friends are obese, and the other half are old, and that shouldn't diminish the value of their life.
I'm skinny and young, but if my getting a shot decreases the chances of me passing it on to somebody else by even 20%, then of course I'll get it.
Everybody reading this realizes that Omicron boosters are available and free, right?
I've worked ICU the entire time during COVID and I've never heard of cardiac side affects, but I can ask.
I'm now in a big patient slump like always in late summer-early fall, mostly because everyone is outside. I think another part of it- not to be too dour- is that COVID killed most of the chronically sick in my city and now I'm just not physically seeing the patients I used to.
I've noticed mental changes too. I got death threats constantly, to the tune of about 1 a week from your stereotypical anti-whatever types, and I had some moments that made me want to carry while I was on the floor. Basically my aggression is pretty high and sometimes it's hard to "snap" out of being intense, maybe hypervigilance.
CrustyRedXpress said:
The idea that Covid was only an issue for people with comorbidities always bothered me. More than 40% of the US has at least one comorbidity (obesity). Half of my friends are obese, and the other half are old, and that shouldn't diminish the value of their life.....
I really have no idea why you would assume the concern with comorbidities would relate to not caring if they die. The reason why, if that is the case, that is important to make clear to people, is so that those people can be extra careful, and maybe encourage them to control or reduce their comorbidity (if possible).
It honestly seems like the way they have handled the risk associated with COVID is to generally ignore comorbidties in general (the obvious and long known one being old age). It seems like this was done so that younger and healthier people would not assume they are generally safe and not get vaccinated. I don't think I ever saw a news report that mentioned the general distribution of the deaths (implying it was evenly distributed of course).
Maybe for a good purpose (much like the Fauci mask thing), but essentially dishonest and yet another reason for the eroded trust. I cannot say that being more forthcoming with the true picture would have been a better overall result, but it certainly would have resulted in far more trust.
93EXCivic said:
bobzilla said:
In reply to 93EXCivic :
Thats the thing, its different for different people. Too many variables. Why do some have such a severe reaction when others don't?
My theory, not proven and I'm not a virologist: This virus was going to claim X% of lives due to DNA coding. There was going to be a certain percentage of the population that would not survive it, much like the elderly and the flu season but to a much larger scale. We may have delayed it with the lockdowns and vaccines, but a certain portion of the population was going to become ill and sadly die. It sucks hard. But nature and life suck so its to be expected.
I come to this theory looking at countries like Australia and New Zealand that had the harshest lock downs and highest vaccination rates. They had very few cases and deaths over the first 18 months while the US and other countries were seeing extremely high cases and deaths. Now that we are slowing down, their death rates are rising and spiking. I feel like the best we as humanity has done is to postpone the inevitable conclusion.
I agree with part of that theory as unfortunately COVID is going to kill some people with various medical conditions and the elder with or without the vaccine.
But the overall death rate versus total population in Australia is .0005% (14,458 out of 25,690,000) whereas the US sits at .003% (1.05 million out of 329.5 million). To me that points more to the vaccine working to prevent serious death and illness even if they are going through a bit of a spike (probably due to burnout from the pandemic).
I just wanted to poke my head in on this one. I hear this number being used incorrectly a lot and I was hoping to correct it. 1m deaths out of 325m people is .3%, not .003%.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
College roommate passed away 2 weeks ago a week after his 2nd booster. They'd noticed an irregular heart rhythm that was not present before he 1st shot. Continued with the rest. I know multiple people that have had severe reactions to them as well. To act like there are no side effects or averse reactions is putting our collective heads in the sand. The long term effects will be interesting to see.
bobzilla said:
The long term effects will be interesting to see.
Reminder: The concept of super-delayed side effects is unprecedented and medically nonsensical.
Side-effects are totally real and heart palpitations and myocarditis are some of the more common ones. That said they're not common and have only been fatal a handful of times across the world. Personally I only know one person who had severe enough side-effects from the vaccine that it required medical attention (or really significant side-effects at all). I know more people who had a side-effect of not getting vaccinated and getting COVID19 instead, called "the deadness." It's pretty scary how the virus both causes your blood O2 levels to drop and suppresses the body's normal reactions to that happening, it's like it suffocates you while making you feel fine about it. That's what happened to my uncle, was released from the hospital while still infected, felt fine for a while, then started to feel bad, barely made it back in just in time to kick the bucket.
In reply to bobzilla :
Everything has risk. People get sick from tetanus shots. Everything in life bears some risk. it is unfortunate that your friend died but he most likely had an undiagnosed issue that was triggered by the shot.
I had a friend who broke his hoot toot during sex, dosent mean any of us are going to stop doing that some time soon.
these anecdotal points of data are not good science. But they sure appeal to people. See regans welfare queen stories.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Yes. People will die from it. People will die from side effects. Neither issue is at debate here. Being snarky to those you disagree with is the #1 reason we've been unable to have these conversations in the past. I get it. You think I'm an uneducated idiot for not following along and ignoring my dr's recommendations to not get vaxxed at this time. I understand you somehow think I'm a science denier and anti-vaxxer. You jumped to those conclusions on your own.
The reality is I want information. Data. I want to know whats going on and make informed decisions. I don't want anyone to die or get sick but I do not have control over those things. Everyone needs to make their own informed decisions with the help of their PCP. I'm not spouting conspiracies. I'm not shouting at the people on my lawn. I'm asking that we treat each other with respect and respect others decisions. IF you can't handle that then please see yourself out.
bobzilla said:
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
College roommate passed away 2 weeks ago a week after his 2nd booster. They'd noticed an irregular heart rhythm that was not present before he 1st shot. Continued with the rest. I know multiple people that have had severe reactions to them as well. To act like there are no side effects or averse reactions is putting our collective heads in the sand. The long term effects will be interesting to see.
Did he contact his doctor about the irregular heartbeat? I'm surprised they continued getting the vaccine without closer monitoring. Myocarditis from the vaccine is very rare(especially for anyone older than their 20s), but is also quite treatable.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I'm not saying otherwise. It is a shock to you when someone 3 months older than you passes unexpectedly (and another the following day of an OD, two fer in one weekend). That's no supposed to happen. But it does. I am only reminding people of the inherent risk in everything we do because some seem to forget that there can be downsides.
Enjoy your life. Enjoy your friends and family. And for god's sake be good to one another. You might not get another chance whether it be sickness, shots or meteors falling from the sky. Quality of life is important and being angry or frustrated takes away from that.
eastsideTim said:
bobzilla said:
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
College roommate passed away 2 weeks ago a week after his 2nd booster. They'd noticed an irregular heart rhythm that was not present before he 1st shot. Continued with the rest. I know multiple people that have had severe reactions to them as well. To act like there are no side effects or averse reactions is putting our collective heads in the sand. The long term effects will be interesting to see.
Did he contact his doctor about the irregular heartbeat? I'm surprised they continued getting the vaccine without closer monitoring. Myocarditis from the vaccine is very rare(especially for anyone older than their 20s), but is also quite treatable.
They were monitoring but he was high risk so they pushed forward. he was heavy and had asthma since he was a teen.
bobzilla said:
I understand you somehow think I'm a science denier and anti-vaxxer. You jumped to those conclusions on your own.
I mean, you did say this, just recently:
bobzilla said:
I'm not telling anyone not to get it. I believe it has good things to offer those at higher risk of severe illness and the elderly. But for a normal 20-50yo that has already had it? Not really a benefit. Forcing people to take the shot is not helpful and shaming people that havent is just stupid. I can spend the rest of the night finding all the studies I have been watching and reading to give you all to support everything I've stated, but if you are a believer it won't matter.
I'm glad that you're not straight-up telling others not to get the shot, but that isn't the first (or most recent) time you've said something that flies in the face of all the best scientific knowledge on this topic. And suggesting that a 20-50yo who had COVID one time has no reason to bother getting further COVID vaccines could sway someone away from getting their shots.
