I split time between two locations.
One housing is incredibly high and taxes are high but other cost are average to slightly below average (though the populous would never acknowledge it)
The second housing is very reasonable unless you're going for a million dollar view, then you'll pay a million dollars. Taxes are non existent, for now, that bubble is going to burst as the oil market is dying (which isn't a bad thing) but everything else is insanely expensive, I mean astronomical.
People in location one complain far more loudly than people in location 2. Here's where it gets wild, Government provided services are better at location #2, in spite of them having far higher operating cost. It's difficult to say which has a better quality of life, in particular because people either love living in location #2 or realize that they merely should only visit. Location #1 people complain about living there because they like to complain and don't take advantage of what's around them and would likely do wherever they were.
Lastly I'll add, people who complain about property taxes are the most ignorant people on earth. If you have a property that you feel has been over assessed, sell it and if you can't get the assessment amount for it, sue your local jurisdiction for the difference in property tax paid versus the sale price. Nobody would actually do that though, people would rather cry rich, as opposed to taking pride in having made an excellent investment. Our they'd rather pass taxes along to those with lesser means, ironically because they've stretched their own lifestyle to the a point of instability, in spite of often making 6 figures and being rather miserable as a result. Truly wealthly people don't bitch about such things. You don't hear Ferrari owners complaining about maintenance and tire cost the way you hear guys with nice houses in suburban hell whose wives don't berkeley them complain about property taxes.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I gladly pay $9k per year in taxes on my 2100sf home in a great neighborhood. Our township is outstanding and our schools are the best in the state. It's worth it. When my kids are either older or out of school I'm leaving here so I don't have to pay that much.
My father died on the operating table at age 78 at what was rated as the worst heart hospital in the country in Arkansas. My mother survived heart surgery three times at two of the best heart hospitals in the country here in Texas, had a geriatric specialist who was head of the Geriatric Department and UT Southwest Medical School and lived to the ripe old age of 90. She might still be alive if not for Covid.
How far is the nearest emergency room from your home in that rural area? Is it an hour away with a spotty ambulance service that may not make it to your house in 30 minutes? Is there an emergency medical air flight service in your county? More than one? Enough that there is more than one helicopter available with the other one is torn apart getting serviced? How many pilots to they have on call? I am over 65 and this stuff matters to me.
What about fire protection? Where is the nearest fire station? Is it a volunteer fire department or professionally staffed and on call 24/7? I had a fire in one bedroom of my house two weeks ago. Three dogs were in crates in the front room while the fire burned in the back bedroom. I also have a Class 1 rated fire station only 11 blocks from my house. That made a difference between minor fire damage in one bedroom and my house burning down and three dogs dying. If it had happened at a different time, they could have saved my life as well.
Infrastructure is more than just fixing potholes. Infrastructure matters.
pheller
UltimaDork
6/27/24 11:59 a.m.
I think the thread is going off the rails a bit.
I'm interested in affordablity. Young family. Average wages. Kids that need care.
Place 1 (Current)
- Small newer houses
- High prices
- Low taxes
- All the services neccesary to live a good life. Good schools.
- Good paying jobs with not a ton of upward mobility. (They pay between $50k-$80k but top out under $90k)
- Short commutes.
- No family nearby.
Place 2 (Proposed)
- Big old houses.
- Low prices
- High taxes
- All the services neccesary to live a good life. Ok schools.
- Lower paying jobs with more upward mobility. (They pay between $40k-$60k)
- Long commutes.
- Famly nearby who is willing to help watch kids.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Lastly I'll add, people who complain about property taxes are the most ignorant people on earth. If you have a property that you feel has been over assessed, sell it and if you can't get the assessment amount for it, sue your local jurisdiction for the difference in property tax paid versus the sale price. Nobody would actually do that though, people would rather cry rich, as opposed to taking pride in having made an excellent investment. Our they'd rather pass taxes along to those with lesser means, ironically because they've stretched their own lifestyle to the a point of instability, in spite of often making 6 figures and being rather miserable as a result. Truly wealthly people don't bitch about such things. You don't hear Ferrari owners complaining about maintenance and tire cost the way you hear guys with nice houses in suburban hell whose wives don't berkeley them complain about property taxes.
You actually started the above screed calling other people ignorant. Wow.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
I wasn't referencing or responding to anyone in the thread because I just responded to the initial post before reading through the thread. But in location 1 of my comparison people complain about property taxes loudly.
Duke
MegaDork
6/27/24 1:59 p.m.
pheller said:
I think the thread is going off the rails a bit.
I'm interested in affordablity. Young family. Average wages. Kids that need care.
Place 1 (Current)
- Small newer houses
- High prices
- Low taxes
- All the services neccesary to live a good life. Good schools.
- Good paying jobs with not a ton of upward mobility. (They pay between $50k-$80k but top out under $90k)
- Short commutes.
- No family nearby.
Place 2 (Proposed)
- Big old houses.
- Low prices
- High taxes
- All the services neccesary to live a good life. Ok schools.
- Lower paying jobs with more upward mobility. (They pay between $40k-$60k)
- Long commutes.
- Famly nearby who is willing to help watch kids.
There is not a way to answer this question from the data presented.
The math parts can be calculated if you have real numbers to work with. The subjective parts can't be calculated at all, and are subjective anyway.
Some random points of observation:
- Smaller, newer houses typically have lower operating and maintenance costs than larger, older houses. Climate will of course affect this as well. This will be an ongoing expense with no end.
- Same with taxes. What's the projected difference in total of annual taxes, over your lifespan?
- Your time on earth is finite. Your daily time with your family, before your kids grow up and move out, is even more finite. How much of that time do you want to spend away from them in a car / bus / train?
- How long will it take to reach that theoretical upper salary limit? How much will you make / save at the front-loaded pay rate compared to the back-loaded total?
- How important is the difference in schooling?
- How important is extended family? If you're just looking at them as cheap daycare, do the math and decide accordingly. If you're looking at them as people you want to spend more time with more frequently, how much is that worth to you?
There isn't a generically correct answer to this. You need to do the math and compare the results, then let that inform your subjective decisions.
Lower income plus longer commute is also a really bad combination unless you can do it with a cheap EV. It looks like the only real upside of moving would be getting closer to family and thus lower child care costs.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Your comments make you appear that you are completely oblivious to many factors of the overall issue, yet you are not afraid to voice a strong opinion. I'm sure there is a word for that.
Property tax rates vary greatly from state to state- some of the top tax states are over 3x higher than the lower tax states. When the vast majority of people complain about property taxes, they are complaining about the rates, not the accuracy of the assessment. Of course, one needs to take into account the overall tax environment of the state, which is what I think you are getting at- some high property tax states are low in income taxes, and vice-versa, etc., etc..
Even then, the ways that states apply the tax rates vary. Take CA for example. The tax rate itself is pretty moderate, but is effectively lower due to prop 13 which limits the increase in property value assessment to 2% a year. This keeps people from being taxed out of their houses as they appreciate. My neighbors pay vastly different property taxes depending on when they bought their houses. It would make perfect sense for one neighbor to complain about their property taxes while another is paying a relatively low amount. So people can have vastly different experiences on the same street, let alone across the country.
ddavidv said:
I'm 5 years from retirement. Where I live in PA is 'mostly' okay, but there are places I'd rather live. I've looked around quite a bit, and studied a lot of the numbers. My dislike of winter, explosive growth where I am and the $6500+ per year I pay in property/school taxes really encourages me to change addresses. I've picked eastern TN as my place of choice. A home would be a wash (dollar for dollar and same size/type). Property taxes would almost go away, which would be like getting an annual raise. The higher sales tax doesn't bother me because we aren't rabid consumers, and it's 9-ish percent vs the 6% we have here. Additional upsides are weather, nicer people and great roads and car stuff to do.
Having a paid for house also changes some of the considerations, as I do NOT want another mortgage.
Unfortunately, I'm married to a spouse that hates change and is not interested in moving. So I'll continue to piss away $6-7 grand every year for the privilege of living where I do until I die.
This mirrors my exact position.
Our home in Michigan was purchased for approximately $65k from my wife's grandfather's estate. We have added $235k in improvements and the value is now $535k. The neighborhood has eight houses. Two have been owned for no less than 40 years by the same owners, the other two had been purchased within the last 10 years. Our next door neighbor paid $525k for about 50% of our SF and a slightly newer house with 1/2 the land. They paid $75k over asking in 2018. The other is a newer home built in 2016 in the $600ks. Our 28 acres is rented out for peanuts and I would prefer to sell the whole shebang and relocate to Eastern TN. The Missus is not hearing it. I need to win the Lotto.
Duke gave really good advice above. Do the math, but make sure you are including all of the variables. That will give you a baseline to see if there is any mathematical advantage. Then factor in the subjective differences. Which might be more important than the financial differences. In the end, the basic question is, which will bring you more happiness? You only get to live your life once. Just be careful that you are balancing future happiness with present day happiness, and not giving up too much of one for the other.
