Little white lies OK for kids or not?

Apologies for another bad kid thread, but I was interested in the collectives thoughts.

My daughter is 100% straight A student, active in school clubs, the play, athletics and social work. About the best kid any parent could ever dream of. Now that she is almost 14, she is getting a bit of the teen 'tude. It came to light last night that she did an online assignment for another student. Not a big deal, just a short quiz about a book to prove you read it as part of a requirement to read X number of books per semester. She did well above her quota, and this kid is a friend and was behind so she helped him out. It was last semester and the grade is already done and gone. According to her, other kids do it all the time among other ways of cheating that she doesn't do.

When I heard, I told her this was unacceptable and that she needed to come clean to the teacher. I am concerned about other kids taking advantage of her smarts and asking her to do their homework, friends putting pressure on her to break rules, and thinking it is OK to cheat if no one finds out. (That's OK in racing honey, but not in school! ) I told her that she has a week to talk to the other kid and go to the teacher and confess before I tell the teacher.

Is that too harsh? Is it risking her record for nothing? Should I keep the punishment at home?

One word: Santa

After telling that whopper... how can any of us expect honest children?

Oh, and yes. I would keep the punishment at home and limit the blast radius to a discreet conversation with the parents of the other kid. No reason to institutionalize the punishment - nothing good ever comes from writing stuff down.

I'd say yes. Just make sure she doesn't do it again. If you force her to tell, it'll ruin the friendship between the girls (It probably would for boys, and girls are WAY less forgiving) and have her on record for participating in plagiarism (a point you should make clear to her, so she knows what she's getting into by 'helping a friend.')

This could also serve as a lesson to her to about how breaking society's rules in seemingly small ways can expose yourself to disproportionate punishments.

Tell her to get paid next time.

I would keep it at home, but be sure to point out to her that if you get caught in stuff like that in college you can be dismissed from the university.

Cool. It'll likely tank her schoolastically and socially. Punishments for cheating and plagerizing can get wild, especially in zero tolerance schools. Could well cost her a college choice or two. Other kids will avoid her at best, or target her at worse.

Are you really sure you want to go into this deep an end of the pool straight off?

Datsun1500 wrote: Keep the school out of it. Sit down with her, the other kid (and his parents) and let them both know its unacceptable and will not happen again. The embarrassment will be enough.

...and that if it does she'll loose the phone/car keys for a month.

I'd say this goes well beyond "little white lie". I'd keep it "off the books", but let her know that if the school administration found out about it, it could have a serious impact on her academic record, and even keep her out of the college of her choice. Honor code violations are a serious matter.

So, at an early age she is learning how to use her skills and abilities to further herself (people owe her) and to help out her friends? Sounds like real life...

As someone said, probably limit it to just yourself, explain why there is a problem AND maybe a small form of punishment. She trusts you right now. Blowing this up into a big deal will hurt that trust and she won't tell you next time.

I think you're overreacting just a bit. Read the first part of your first paragraph again. Now thank your lucky stars that you have such a great daughter.

Now re-read the second sentence of your second paragraph slowly. I don't think any of those things you're worried about actually happened. It doesn't sound like anybody pressured her or took advantage. She helped out a friend in a way she thought would get him through a situation that he was having trouble with. Reading X number of books, as such, doesn't sound like a core educational requirement anyway. It's a lot different from cheating on a math test.

I don't think I would punish this, especially if it's a first offence. You've got 7 more years of teenagerhood to get through; don't start building a reputation as The Adversary. What I WOULD do is help her increase her awareness of what school cheating can mean for everybody: the cheater (who gets credit for something he didn't actually do), the facilitator (who makes a lie possible), the teacher (who gets a false impression of what his students can accomplish, and maybe loses a chance to offer help to someone who needs it), and the whole school (which is trying to deliver grad certificates that actually mean something). She's only 13; last year she was 12. It stands to reason that she doesn't have a complete grasp of the big picture.

Your daughter was trying to help: great! Now she (and you) have the chance to think about how else she can help. For example, did her friend fall behind on his reading...

because reading's tough for him? She can help him get that improved, by encouraging him to use the school's resources.

because he's allergic to chick-lit about tormented vampires and Troubled Relationships and doesn't know about the Alex Ryder books or other books where interesting stuff actually happens? She can take him to the library.

because he's actually a fantastic reader and is 500 pages into a 700-page saga, but it only counts as "one book" and the assignment was to read 10? Well, in this case my sympathies are 100% with your daughter, but that's a conversation with the teacher that you should be part of, because clearly one size doesn't fit all.

Speaking of the teacher, you might want to consider a discussion in which you "don't reveal your sources" but you do mention that some of the online results may have been less than authentic. There may be a way to improve the process to make false entries harder to do, which would be a good plan if the same technique is going to be used for more critical assessment. You might also want to inquire what the purpose of the assignment was, and whether anything else happened around it (book reports, group discussions, class work about writing, etc. – or was it just "Read a bunch of books"?)

I think you need to know more about this situation, and how she understood it at the time, before you act. If you punish on the basis of what you understood instead of what she understood, that's another brick in the wall of My Dad Doesn't Get It, which is exactly what leads to more, not less, reliance on choices approved by peers instead of choices discussed with parents.

According to what you said, it sounds willful, not coerced. I wouldn't call this a white lie by any stretch. Would you rather have an honest kid, or a kid who got into an Ivy League school?

In reply to Stealthtercel:

While I don't particularly think the OP is overreacting, your post brings up a number of excellent points, and was very well presented, by the way.

First and foremost would be keeping the lines of communication open and keeping it positive. Let her know what the consequences of "getting caught" could be, and suggest ways of dealing with this situation in the future.

My $.02... My kids are fairly young, so they tell "white lies" a lot. No matter how much I push them to tell the truth, or discipline them. Kids are kids. They're going to do that. So my approach...every time I find out about one I make it clear that it's unacceptable, and depending on the severity I may punish them. However, while I'd never say this to them, I understand that it's going to happen. So I try not to over react. As Stealthtercel indicated, I always remember how lucky I am to have such good kids.

Don't sweat the small stuff, just make sure she knows the boundaries of what is small and what is big. Otherwise kids need to find boundaries on their own. Studies show over protective parents raise kids that have problems fitting in, and coping with problems on their own when the time comes. The kids tend to stay "kids" longer like into their 20s

how did you find out....that could have a big bearing on how you handle it. i have noticed with the new generation of kids they look at things different than we did. i really think they dont see anything wrong with "cheating" on line. my nephew caught his older son doing this exact thing and his son said "well the friend i am doing this for is helping me with my history one". i think the schools make it too easy for the kids to do things like this

1988RedT2 wrote: I'd say this goes well beyond "little white lie". I'd keep it "off the books", but let her know that if the school administration found out about it, it could have a serious impact on her academic record, and even keep her out of the college of her choice. Honor code violations are a serious matter.

This. It's easy to make a seemingly innocent choice in the interest of helping out a friend which can have serious repercussions, i.e. 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. It's the action, not the intent behind it, which would cause her a major problem if she were to get caught.

It's not much different than if an employee does another a 'favor' by clocking them in even though they are late. That's a firing offense at many companies and with good reason.

Thanks for all of the input. For some perspective, this is an 8th grade student, so I wasn't too worried about college at this point. In fact, I wanted to make sure she knew not to do this in highschool because it really could have more serious repercussions. She is a star student and the teachers love her, so I thought that honesty and a little embarrassment would be enough to make a point.

The kid in question is a boy, and both a friend and a competitor for the position of valedictorian in the class. He did ask her for some help, and she agreed to do it. Whether it was for a friend, or to get one up on him, or from pressure I am not sure. While cheating and lying are concerns, she is a smart kid and could get pressure from the slackers to do their work for them. She needs to learn how to say no to leeches, in 8th grade, in highschool and in life!

I gave her a week to talk to the other kid and formulate a plan, but in typical fashion for her, she and the kid went directly to the teacher involved yesterday. They confessed and apologized and were repentant about it, and the teacher let them off with just an admonishment. She probably knows that kids cheat all the time, and was impressed that they were so honest.

It also led to a good discussion about cheating, what to do when you have a group assignment and everyone else is not pulling their weight, and competition and peer pressure. I am happy with the way I handled it, relieved that she did the right thing, and continue to be impressed and amazed by my kids.

Although, sometimes I wish Chilton's made a manual for teens!

pinchvalve wrote: Thanks for all of the input. For some perspective, this is an 8th grade student, so I wasn't too worried about college at this point. In fact, I wanted to make sure she knew not to do this in highschool because it really could have more serious repercussions. She is a star student and the teachers love her, so I thought that honesty and a little embarrassment would be enough to make a point. The kid in question is a boy, and both a friend and a competitor for the position of valedictorian in the class. He did ask her for some help, and she agreed to do it. Whether it was for a friend, or to get one up on him, or from pressure I am not sure. While cheating and lying are concerns, she is a smart kid and could get pressure from the slackers to do their work for them. She needs to learn how to say no to leeches, in 8th grade, in highschool and in life! I gave her a week to talk to the other kid and formulate a plan, but in typical fashion for her, she and the kid went directly to the teacher involved yesterday. They confessed and apologized and were repentant about it, and the teacher let them off with just an admonishment. She probably knows that kids cheat all the time, and was impressed that they were so honest. It also led to a good discussion about cheating, what to do when you have a group assignment and everyone else is not pulling their weight, and competition and peer pressure. I am happy with the way I handled it, relieved that she did the right thing, and continue to be impressed and amazed by my kids. Although, sometimes I wish Chilton's made a manual for teens!

I am impressed you held her to it. Nice work, Dad. Lying is totally unacceptable, in my opinion. In societies opinion, well, it depends on what "is" means, if you get my drift. I am not trying to be political, it just seems that all of the people we're supposed to be looking up to have lied in rather big ways and most have gotten away with it, The President, Sanford, Tiger, Armstrong, etc etc etc. Teach your kid that lying is ALWAYS wrong, and she may not get ahead as fast or as far, but she'll be better for it, really she will.

I'd keep the punishment in-house. Don't get the teacher involved. Grade school I assume? 8th grade? Grade school is bullE36 M3 anyway. The teach kids lies and then tell the truth in high school. As long as she knows right from wrong, you good.

pinchvalve wrote: Thanks for all of the input. For some perspective, this is an 8th grade student, so I wasn't too worried about college at this point. In fact, I wanted to make sure she knew not to do this in highschool because it really could have more serious repercussions. She is a star student and the teachers love her, so I thought that honesty and a little embarrassment would be enough to make a point. The kid in question is a boy, and both a friend and a competitor for the position of valedictorian in the class. He did ask her for some help, and she agreed to do it. Whether it was for a friend, or to get one up on him, or from pressure I am not sure. While cheating and lying are concerns, she is a smart kid and could get pressure from the slackers to do their work for them. She needs to learn how to say no to leeches, in 8th grade, in highschool and in life! I gave her a week to talk to the other kid and formulate a plan, but in typical fashion for her, she and the kid went directly to the teacher involved yesterday. They confessed and apologized and were repentant about it, and the teacher let them off with just an admonishment. She probably knows that kids cheat all the time, and was impressed that they were so honest. It also led to a good discussion about cheating, what to do when you have a group assignment and everyone else is not pulling their weight, and competition and peer pressure. I am happy with the way I handled it, relieved that she did the right thing, and continue to be impressed and amazed by my kids. Although, sometimes I wish Chilton's made a manual for teens!

wow ... from reading this from the beginning, it turned out WAY better than I expected ... looks like you've got a rather exceptional daughter there

wbjones wrote: wow ... from reading this from the beginning, it turned out WAY better than I expected ... looks like you've got a rather exceptional daughter there

He's right.

This may be time for a congratulations of some sort - my kids are 4, 3, 2 and 5 months, so I have no idea how to properly praise a kid your daughters age, but you should do something special to show that you're elated in the way she handled it.

what worked on me as I was growing up .. Dad would take me aside ... look me dead in the eyes and tell me he was proud of me .... even in my teenage shiny happy person yrs, that meant something

wbjones wrote: what worked on me as I was growing up .. Dad would take me aside ... look me dead in the eyes and tell me he was proud of me .... even in my teenage shiny happy person yrs, that meant something

Truth.

Wow, you must be really proud, what an honest kid. Speaks volumes about her upbringing, bravo.

wbjones wrote: what worked on me as I was growing up .. Dad would take me aside ... look me dead in the eyes and tell me he was proud of me .... even in my teenage shiny happy person yrs, that meant something

Coming from someone who didn't get this much, this means the world. That being said, I'd use the kid that got busted taking the SATs for other kids as an example of how a seemingly small one time online thing, can snowball and cost more than just educational opportunity.