LotusTalk?

So i was lurking the forums and checked in on a thread about some guy wanting to lighten up his Esprit a bit. Boy did that unleash a E36 M3storm. I didn't know there was such a pervasive mood of "you should not track a street car." I watched a couple guys get attacked for arguing that it made a good track car. Aside from paying more for consumables (fluids, tires, brake pads, rotors etc) you would be fine, barring an accident (but every car you take on the track will use up consumables more rapidly than when on street duty...)

But apparently opinion was that modifications were "ruining" the car and there is a line between street and track cars - that street cars (such as Lambos, F430s, Vipers and 911s) should stay on the street and had no business on a track, and that if you want to drive on the track you should buy something like a Radical. Cars are different then what they say on paper - if you could get an Elise to match up with an Ariel Atom on paper, it would still drive differently, because it's a different car. There's feel, which is subjective, that comes from these differences. A 4 cyl-turbo car might accelerate to 100 MPH in the same time as an NA V8, but it's going to be a very different driving experience. I'm a little embarrassed to say that I was actually shocked; that's an attitude I would expect from certain "other" marques, not Lotus.

And I've found the attitude that "factory engineers made the suspension that way because it's the best" pretty naive. It reminds me of when Jeremy Clarkson said the same thing to a guy who had modified his Elise's suspension. Manufacturers have to balance manufacturing cost and comfort when they design a car, and factor in what they think the typical buyer will be happy with. Damn near every time, that means a sacrifice in performance for cost and comfort. There's usually room to improve if you're willing to make the trade-offs for that last bit of performance, and if you know what you're doing. Even the Lotus engineers knew they weren't wringing every last bit of the Esprit; they made quite an improvement on later V8s with better suspension and brakes. Main point being that it's naive to think that engineers tap out 100% of the performance potential of a car every time they make one.

Feh.

The S2000 guys used to be that way, then they got cheap enough for others to buy and modify and their attitude changed quickly. I'm really surprised about the Lotus guys tho, isn't a Lotus supposed to be a thinly disguised race car rather than a BMW clone?

Yeah, I kept hearing "the Esprit is a GT car" over and over. I wouldn't say any expensive sporting car is necessarily a GT car. A GT is a performance car that makes trade-offs as it's designed for long distance touring. That means more luxury features (and weight), more trunk room, maybe some little useless rear seats. Think Ferrari 550 Maranello or Aston Martin DB9. Not Viper or BMW M1. The Esprit strikes me more as just an exotic, not a GT.

I can only wonder what they think about that guy who swapped an Audi V8 and 6 speed into an early Esprit. Which is downright awesome, by the way.

Or the SHO engined Esprit, which is awesome, too. I'm of the opinion that Lotus only makes thinly disguised race cars dressed up enough to drive on the street.

I dunno what forums you're hanging out in, Matt, but on the Yahoo TurboEsprit list, which is the main Esprit list, there's certainly no problem seen with tracking a car or modding it. Some of the English forums are a bit... off. The Esprit is not a track only car, like the one-eleven thing, for example, or a track version Exige. It is more of a road car, and there were quite a lot of different ones. You can mod one to race car specs and have quite a track car. Think X180R, Sport 350, etc. Now, modding up the Elise, well, the designer talked at LOG 26 and said they made the Elise to be as fast as it possibly could be. People change up the suspension and wind up with cars slower than factory. As in, they brought them to Hethel and ran them around the track with a bone stock car and the stock car beat them. But, he said, if the mods make the driver more confident, then that was worth something too, so have at it.

Purists never want anything changed. I say it's Your mess, You do what you want with it. Of course, if that involves cardboard and plywood bodywork, I'm still going to laugh at you

after working at Lotus and being around some of the LotusTalk guys, i do not have one nice thing to say about them...

Dr. Hess wrote: Now, modding up the Elise, well, the designer talked at LOG 26 and said they made the Elise to be as fast as it possibly could be. People change up the suspension and wind up with cars slower than factory. As in, they brought them to Hethel and ran them around the track with a bone stock car and the stock car beat them. But, he said, if the mods make the driver more confident, then that was worth something too, so have at it.

I can buy that; Lotus are tops as far as suspension and handling work go. But I figure there's room for improvement, however slight that may be, like bringing a base Elise's suspension up to Exige specs. It doesn't surprise me that people wind up with cars being slower when they do it themselves though.

I've got to give props to The Lotus Forum members. They're exactly how I'd expect Lotus enthusiasts to act (that's a good thing)

Lotus Talk is one step above the general car forum at the vortex for insanity. It seems most of the track junkies and modifiers have moved on, with most of the good information as well.

Don't know if its original owners who just flat out refuse to understand that there cars have depreciated beyond recovery and are bitter. Or that they are angry that people are now snatching these things up for low 20's and tracking them. Huge fights over power adders, suspensions. Lots of big talk, I know a few viper owners got a little fed up at one point and actually invited them to run at willow with them. To my knowledge no one showed up.

I've got to give props to The Lotus Forum members. They're exactly how I'd expect Lotus enthusiasts to act (that's a good thing)

Yeah, The Lotus Forums are good people (I've met quite a few of them at meets, etc.) I usually hang around on http://www.lotuselancentral.com (for obvious reasons), also a good group. They're no strangers to dramatic mods / track cars / rebuild projects over there. It helps that the M100 is the underappreciated red-headed step child of the make.

Unfortunately with Lotus you'll always get a few of the "it's an EXOTIC and should be CHERISHED you plebian!" numbnutses but for the most part the real enthusiasts drown them out. I guess they've gotta congregate somewhere...

The thing about Lotus that many of the "purists" tend to forget is that Colin Chapman was always running out of money and would produce street cars as cheaply and as well as they possibly can to support his racing efforts.

Colin's engineering team would rifle through other vendor's parts bins to build their cars, so the idea that the cars are perfect out of the box, apparently the person stating that hasn't really looked at one on a lift or been around many other cars.

Colin Chapman and Lotus are world renowned for making the most out of so little.

I know Dad would talk about how much he loved his S1 Elan, but that the stupid rear rubber drive joints were horrible and made hard acceleration difficult to do smoothly once they wore out and wear out they did. Not too mention the vacuum operated headlights that would slowly disappear at WOT as the vacuum signal would disappear. Made driving at night, interesting to say the least :) Then there was the wonderful motor and electrical system.

Swede, it's my observation that after the old man passed, the company figured out that they could make more money selling cars that didn't break down all the time. Quality got progressively better. And The Word is that the workers at the plant would strive to park their cars as far away from the building as possible because the old man would wander the parking lot and take people's cars apart to see if something would fit/work.

My 74 Europa was a fantastic car. There was nothing that could touch it. When it was running. There's a reason every Europa you see for sale last ran 20 years ago. My current 74 Europa is waiting it's turn, then will likely get a 1zz or 2zz motor. My Esprit has been (knock on wood) much, much (MUCH) better, and the later you go, the more reliable they get. A late model Esprit, while having more maintenance, is in the same reliabiltiy range as, say, a MR2 Turbo, from people that have owned both.

I'd love to find a late model Esprit (like an early V8) with a blown/dead engine and replace it and that weak 5-speed with something else. I actually prefer the earlier <'98 interior and the blocky Toyota taillights, rather than the four circles. I have some very nostalgic memories of all things Lotus, especially the Esprit

Chapman and Donald Healey both were masters of parts bin engineering. The main difference was Chapman's cars were geared toward racing and Healey's toward fast road touring.

IIRC the first Lotus Seven had a 35 HP Ford Prefect flathead four. It damn sure had to be light.

Having said that, both manufacturers raced their road cars right regular. The first Climax engined Esprit and the Healey 100-6 dominated their respective race classes at the time.

So, back to the forums...What's the best forum to poke around on if you're thinking about a used Elise?

What exactly makes a Europa so unreliable? Is the engine that bad and/or difficult/expensive to fix?

Well, you have to remember what a Europa is, when it was made, the philosophy, etc. The whole body weighs about 200 lbs. The frame weighs 100 lbs. The "reliable" engine was the Renault. The TC was a great race motor, in the 60's, but in a street car 10 (now almost 50) years later? Well, unless you consider it perfectly normal to pull the head and pan off to replace the water pump, which, incidentally goes bad all the time because the bearing is too small, then it has "issues" that most people don't accept in modern designs. Remember, it's considered about normal to rebuild a race motor every season, so if you go 15K miles on the road, that's a lot further than a season racing, right? So what are you bitching about? Add in Lucas electrics and a cost saving philosophy (at the time) of the builder and you have a very light, very fast race car barely street legal with lots of exemptions printed all over it.

As for difficult/expensive, "it depends." Difficult? I wouldn't say so. The Europa TC was the first motor I ever built and it went together just fine. It cost me about $700 in 1984 to rebuild it myself, after paying a shop two large to berkeley it up. Others insist that only super specialist places can possibly rebuild a TC and it will cost you 20 large. Of course, those are usually either the super specialist places or people that already sent them 20 large. Overall, the car is not difficult to work on, which is good because, as noted above, you have to do that a lot. About the most difficult aspect is assuming "The Lotus Position" (upside down under the dash) to get to things. The engine bay has plenty of room.