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EricM
EricM SuperDork
2/24/13 10:25 a.m.

Investing in something other than the stock market.

It turns out that I am sick of the stock market. Where can you put money safely (other than personal savings, which in turn gets dumped into the stock market) as an investment?

For reference, I have exactly one piece of debt. My Mortgage. Zero Credit card debt, zero auto loans.

All the advice I have read suggests 4 places, all of them probably rad the same wiki page and then just copied it to their blog or whatever.

  1. government something, like treasury bonds and gold and E36 M3.

  2. real estate, really? people still do this? I also lump Domain name buying in this one.

  3. Micro loans. Becoming part of a loaning group that makes small loans.

  4. Invest "in yourself' doing side work, starting a company, etc (so I have to trade more of my time on earth for money)

Really? that's it? the stock market, or one of those four things? Tell me there is more than that. And, if nothing else, where is a safe place to store money? Banks have proven they can and will go under and keep your money. They can and will foreclose on your property. Where can the money be put safely?

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
2/24/13 10:33 a.m.

Drugs. Big risks but big dividends.

Depends on your age, closer to retirement you don't want to get too risky. I hear wonderful things about Mutual Funds, but mostly from MF salesmen.

In the 80s I bough silver for $9/oz., it's higher now. I would spend time with a professional investor.

Dan

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy UltraDork
2/24/13 10:46 a.m.

Its not as important right now, but 20 years ago when I was buying my house, I had exactly no spare cash for investing- it all went against the mortgage. Its usually been pretty tough to consistently earn more interest than you pay. Now, I can get 2.99% mortgage money to buy half my house for a second time, and I still intend to kill that debt as quickly as possible, but mostly to avoid the inevitable higher interest rates coming. 2.99% is as close to free as we will get.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim PowerDork
2/24/13 10:55 a.m.

I'd dump (1) firmly into the no-go camp. Bond yields are up artificially because of the Fed's zero-interest rate policy. As soon as that'll get discontinued (unless we're going full Japan for the next decade or two), bond yields will take a crap as there is an inverse relation between interest rates and bond yields. Precious metals have historically been bad investments that get hyped up every couple of decades, then crash and burn. If anything, only a small percentage of the portfolio should go into those.

(2), well, that might be worth it if you want to become a landlord. If not, I don't see much of a point right now. It's long haul, but so are all investments.

(3) is actually an idea I'm toying with, the returns are pretty decent even for prime loans. They're not a substitute for a savings account, again you have to be in there for the long haul and you have to be comfortable with a certain amount of risk. Don't park money in there that you can't afford to lose or that you'll need within 3-5 years.

(4) is generally not a bad idea and especially a side business can be useful so you're not fully dependent on your main paycheck.

This advice is exactly worth what you paid for it, void where prohibited etc etc.

fritzsch
fritzsch HalfDork
2/24/13 11:06 a.m.

You could invest in currency? My grandparents had quite a bit of money in the euro near the beginning of its inception

petegossett
petegossett UberDork
2/24/13 11:09 a.m.

Eric, I know it's risky as an investment, but hell I'd say you might as well look into classic/collectible cars. I know you have knowledge on 924/944 Porsches, look for one you can enjoy a couple years and hopefully make enough to cover the cost of ownership.

I mean, if you're not going to make E36 M3 off any "real" investments anyway, you might as well put your money into something you'll get some pleasure and use out of.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim PowerDork
2/24/13 11:14 a.m.
fritzsch wrote: You could invest in currency? My grandparents had quite a bit of money in the euro near the beginning of its inception

Investing, maybe, just do yourself a favour and don't think you'll make money trading currencies. You're up against full time pros in the currency market with a ton more mathematical firepower who can trade in much shorter time than you can. That's a very good way to turn a large fortune into a very small one.

mazdeuce
mazdeuce Dork
2/24/13 11:15 a.m.

Buy a business. Look into franchises or buying part of a business if risk reduction is your thing. You can also look at buying parts of oil wells. Not easy or inexpensive and probably has a risk profile that few are comfortable with outside the industry.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
2/24/13 12:09 p.m.

When people say "real estate" as an investment, they usually mean cash-flow stuff like apartment buildings, townhomes, retail spaces, and the like. Unless you want to deal with being a landlord or hiring somebody, it's not a great idea.

I personally like flipping cars, but then you have to "work" the money out.

A few people I know who are very well off actually invest in "hard" currency and collectibles. Think old US gold coins that are already worth more than their weight in gold, silver pieces, bullion, recovered treasure, and the like.

JohnRW1621
JohnRW1621 PowerDork
2/24/13 12:17 p.m.

If I was in the position...I would look into retail strip mall ownership with triple net leases.
Triple Net is where the tenant pays for the improvements. Cinder block construction and concrete floor.
If the AC craps out, tenant pays.
If the parking lot needs to be repaved, tenant pays.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/24/13 12:25 p.m.

With all due respect, there's a lot of weirdness in this..

EricM wrote: Investing in something other than the stock market. It turns out that I am sick of the stock market. Where can you put money safely (other than personal savings, which in turn gets dumped into the stock market) as an investment?

Personal savings is not an investment. It is savings.

EricM wrote: For reference, I have exactly one piece of debt. My Mortgage. Zero Credit card debt, zero auto loans.

Not sure why that matters from an investment standpoint, other than the best investment some people can make is getting out of debt. If your house has value, and your interest rates are high, paying it down is a good investment.

EricM wrote: 1. government something, like treasury bonds and gold and E36 M3.

Gold is not government something. It is a commodity.

EricM wrote: 2. real estate, really? people still do this? I also lump Domain name buying in this one.

Yes, and it's still a good investment. But not for get rich quick guys who are dabbling in something they have not educated themselves in.

EricM wrote: 3. Micro loans. Becoming part of a loaning group that makes small loans.

I am not knowledgeable in this, but if the ROI does not exceed your mortgage interest, paying down your mortgage is a better investment.

EricM wrote: 4. Invest "in yourself' doing side work, starting a company, etc (so I have to trade more of my time on earth for money)

Warren Buffet has done OK with this. It doesn't mean working harder and putting in more hours earning a wage. It means working smarter, and learning how to maximize things so you can make wise decisions.

EricM wrote: Really? that's it? the stock market, or one of those four things? Tell me there is more than that. And, if nothing else, where is a safe place to store money?

Investing money is radically different from storing money. One makes money, the other ALWAYS looses money.

EricM wrote: Banks have proven they can and will go under and keep your money.

Not if they are FDIC insured they can't (and all banks are).

EricM wrote: They can and will foreclose on your property.

Not if you pay your bills they can't.

EricM wrote: Where can the money be put safely?

What's safely? You mean, "What will offer a large guaranteed rate of return that exceeds inflation and makes me a healthy profit"? Quite honestly, absolutely nothing. If you mean, "Where can I hide my money so it will deteriorate at approximately the rate of inflation", then CD's should work.

BY FAR the best investment you could make is a bit of education. I'm serious, no offense.

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
2/24/13 12:47 p.m.
SVreX wrote:
EricM wrote: Banks have proven they can and will go under and keep your money.
Not if they are FDIC insured they can't (and all banks are).

Eric may be working with larger sums than you or I....FDIC only ensures up to a limit....what is it? $250,000?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/24/13 12:51 p.m.

In reply to JoeyM:

Then open 2 different accounts in 2 different banks.

If he's kind that kind of change, I don't think he'd be looking here for investment advice.

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds Reader
2/24/13 1:01 p.m.

If you are eligible fo rmembership in USAA, or are already a member, call them. They have no-cost advisors who can evaluate your situation and offer options. Right now, there are few "safe" places to put money that have much return. I won't go into the whys and wherefores except to say that in the future this will be conidered an economically unique era - low nominal inflation (emphasis on nominal) and low interest rates, with high government spending, high unemployment and slow (or worse) growth. According to some economic theories, that's' supposed to be unpossible; under others, totally predictable and unsurprising. [Sorry, econ major here.]

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/24/13 1:05 p.m.

In reply to conesare2seconds:

So, as an Econ major, what are your investment suggestions?

And what's "unpossible"?

EvanR
EvanR HalfDork
2/24/13 2:42 p.m.

Bottom line is, making money is about someone giving you more for something than you paid for it.

At the most basic is a job. Someone (your employer) is giving you more money for 8 hours of your time/labor than it costs you to to your job.

But everything, everything that increases your net worth is about an external force giving you more than you paid.

I'm not a smart man when it comes to such things. There are professionals who make a living doing this sort of thing, and I am not one of them.

Therefore, I leave it to other people. But the point is, anything that increases your net worth is left to other people. There is NO "safe place" to put money. Period. Even cash or precious metals can (and will) go down in value.

As for me, I buy dividend-paying, blue chip stocks, such as Coca-Cola. The dividends are way more than any bank account or CD will pay, and it is my personal belief that Coca-Cola is more likely to be around (and of some value) than money in a bank account, or cash under the mattress.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
2/24/13 4:04 p.m.
EvanR wrote: As for me, I buy dividend-paying, blue chip stocks, such as Coca-Cola. The dividends are way more than any bank account or CD will pay, and it is my personal belief that Coca-Cola is more likely to be around (and of some value) than money in a bank account, or cash under the mattress.

Was going to suggest this. Buy strong and invest long.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
2/24/13 4:52 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine wrote:
EvanR wrote: As for me, I buy dividend-paying, blue chip stocks, such as Coca-Cola. The dividends are way more than any bank account or CD will pay, and it is my personal belief that Coca-Cola is more likely to be around (and of some value) than money in a bank account, or cash under the mattress.
Was going to suggest this. Buy strong and invest long.

Yeah, you know, the real reason to own stock. (Sssshhhh! Don't tell Osterkraut! )

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt SuperDork
2/24/13 6:14 p.m.
EricM wrote: 1. government something, like treasury bonds and gold and E36 M3.

Bonds tend to be a conservative investment - they can sometimes appreciate or depreciate, but mostly are valuable as an IOU that usually gets paid back with interest.

Gold is a totally different ball game - it's a commodities market item. There's a lot of paranoid types who talk as if gold has something that makes it intrinsically valuable. Reality check - its main use is luxury goods and fashion articles, and if that doesn't scare you away, you probably shouldn't be in the commodities market.

2. real estate, really? people still do this?

If you want to be a landlord and rent things out - people still need a place to live, and for a speculator, it's best to buy low and sell high. We've had some prime buying time lately for those with the money to play the game. But definitely a hands on sort of investment and not something you can passively put in an account and watch it grow.

I also lump Domain name buying in this one.

Definitely a speculative investment whose day has come and gone.

3. Micro loans. Becoming part of a loaning group that makes small loans.

I have no experience with this one, but it sounds a bit risky. Like real estate, it seems to be something that you need an active role in.

4. Invest "in yourself' doing side work, starting a company, etc (so I have to trade more of my time on earth for money)

It does need time, but the good thing is this is one investment where you don't always even need to risk money. For example, I've written two books now - having them out means I can collect royalties as passive income for a while until they stop selling, and I didn't have to invest much money, just the time to write them.

Really? that's it? the stock market, or one of those four things? Tell me there is more than that.

There's the derivatives market, such as trading stock items. Generally it's for people who find the stock market too easy to understand, safe, predictable, and boring.

The commodity futures market is similarly crazy - good if you're making a product or buying a product and want to lock in a price, totally bananas for anybody else. The way they're always traded on margin makes this place extra scary if you don't know what you're doing.

A somewhat less crazy product is the mutual fund. It's generally based on stocks, but has an expert in charge picking them, so all you have to do is figure out if the people running it have any brains instead of having to pick out the stocks. They can also trade in some other types of assets - exactly what will depend on the fund.

The REIT is a relative of the mutual fund - it's pretty much a mutual fund that buys and manages real estate.

And, if nothing else, where is a safe place to store money? Banks have proven they can and will go under and keep your money. They can and will foreclose on your property. Where can the money be put safely?

Money market items are a fairly low risk, not terribly high reward type of investment. It's similar to the bond market but more short term. There are even a couple of banks that offer money market accounts insured under FDIC terms for up to $100,000.

Hal
Hal Dork
2/24/13 7:52 p.m.
MadScientistMatt wrote: A somewhat less crazy product is the mutual fund. It's generally based on stocks, but has an expert in charge picking them, so all you have to do is figure out if the people running it have any brains instead of having to pick out the stocks. They can also trade in some other types of assets - exactly what will depend on the fund.

I have a bunch of money in a mutual fund that specializes in municipal bonds. Doesn't make big bucks but has been chugging along at 3-4% a year since I put the money in 7 years ago.

Nathan JansenvanDoorn
Nathan JansenvanDoorn Dork
2/24/13 8:41 p.m.

Watch the MER (management expense ratio) in mutual funds.

I've been watching ETF's lately - they seem to accomplish a lot of what people desire in mutual funds without the MER overhead. But I'm FAR from an expert, and haven't yet put my money where my mouth is... though I did pull money out of my underperforming and high MER mutual funds late last year.

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds Reader
2/25/13 12:49 a.m.
SVreX wrote: In reply to conesare2seconds: So, as an Econ major, what are your investment suggestions?

Econ degree, yes. Certified Financial Planner, no.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/25/13 7:24 a.m.

Ah yes...highly trained specialist in the theoretical.

It's OK, don't feel bad. Ain't nobody professional or certified here, just a lot of big opinions!

Certifiable, perhaps, but not certified.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
2/25/13 7:25 a.m.

In reply to conesare2seconds:

I'm actually quite interested in your opinion based on your training, nothing more.

slefain
slefain SuperDork
2/25/13 8:12 a.m.

Invest in precious metals. Specifically these:

Iron:

Aluminum:

Titanium:

Magnesium:

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