Preventable local tragedy.

unk577 wrote: Ranger50 In your example a person fired a shot with the expectation of the back stop containing the projectile. In the original story it is assumed that the gun was fired into the air without regard to where the projectile would end up. IF this is the case, then yes there is a crime ie: reckless endangerment, discharging a firearm in public, etc. Add to that, that it ended in a fatality then it will cary with it at minimum a man slaughter charge

Exactly. I'm kind of stunned that you don't see a problem with that.

I'm in a not-at-all-gun-happy state (RI), where firing a gun into the air is looked at as a pretty serious offense.

Apexcarver wrote: there are several cases similar to this where there IS criminal negligence due to discharging a firearm in a careless fashion. I understand your point wherein you are stating "innocent until proven guilty". However, if someone proves that the round in question came from someone discharging up into the air without due concern to a backdrop, then you do have a crime.

"Innocent until proven guilty" does not mean that a crime was not committed. It means that someone accused of a crime is not guilty of it until you can prove in a court of law that they are the one who did it. If someone robs a bank, and they don't ever figure out who it was, the bank still got robbed.

I think it's going to be prohibitively difficult to catch the person responsible for this and prove that they were the ones who did it. ("I saw Frank fire his gun directly in the air." "Do you know for certain he is the only person within 5 miles who did?")

I feel bad for the family of the poor kid. This is the epitome of senseless and random.

yamaha wrote:

tuna55 wrote: Careful - if you fire straight into the air (reasonably straight) it won't hit you any harder than hail. At an angle, it will go for miles.

And pick up speed again on the downward angle....Vertical isn't the problem.

I think that is what he was saying. If only fired vertically, it will fall strait down at terminal velocity of roughly 200mph (180fps). If you fire at an angle, the horizontal component will add a lot more velocity (energy) when it hits.

Guns fired into the air is scary stuff, I'm fairly certain that bullets have bounced off the roof of my ghetto home on more than one New Years Eve. I know that they have considerably less power when in ballistic fall mode, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it.

My sympathy goes out to the family of the young boy. I have a boy about the same age.

Assuming the bullet is located CSI makes me believe they would be able to run ballistics on it to tie it to a weapon if a suspect is ever found.

Really sucks that this happened. Hope the family can find peace with it.

In reply to nocones: That is the publics largest misconception........most of the time you can only figure out the caliber and sometimes the make of the weapon. Occasionally one will show up as unique(normally due to abuse or improper cleaning) I took part in an experiment in Forensics class over this, 3 different glock model 17's, 3 different owners, unknown and known round count. None were different from the others.

Yup, "ballistics" more or less ends at what meets the eye, bullet design, rifling marks, diameter.

I'm civilized enough to use blanks for such activities. Sucks most aren't and a kid had to die over it.

I guess people think that bullets just disintegrate once they go up in the air.

You could always just put a few in the dirt. It still is loud.

Joey

HappyAndy wrote: Guns fired into the air is scary stuff, I'm fairly certain that bullets have bounced off the roof of my ghetto home on more than one New Years Eve. I know that they have considerably less power when in ballistic fall mode, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it. My sympathy goes out to the family of the young boy. I have a boy about the same age.

Same here. I still recall when I lived in my ghetto apartment, and came home after spending the holidays at my mom's place in FL to find a hole in the kitchen window and wall. I have to admit, though, the angle made me think the round was supposed to be on the way up, instead of hitting my place on the way down. berkeley, when did an allegedly "modern" nation start celebrating holidays like it was an Afghan wedding?!?!

In reply to friedgreencorrado: About the same time as shows making rednecks out to be cool?

My only question, was Joe Biden within a couple mile radius of this incident?

yamaha wrote: In reply to friedgreencorrado: About the same time as shows making rednecks out to be cool? My only question, was Joe Biden within a couple mile radius of this incident?

It goes back older than that. New Years Eve 1995 two bullets came into a friend's apt in Brooklyn, one of them to his kid's crib. I was the closest thing to a redneck for miles.

Beer Baron wrote: I think that is what he was saying. If only fired vertically, it will fall strait down at terminal velocity of roughly 200mph (180fps). If you fire at an angle, the horizontal component will add a lot more velocity (energy) when it hits.

Terminal velocity is terminal velocity -- the drag from the air doesn't care if the bullet is going straight up or at an angle.

The difference is that when fired straight up the bullet will briefly stop, and may well tumble after that. If it's tumbling, it's going to have more drag, and thus a lower terminal velocity.

Also, for certain rounds, terminal velocity is fast enough to cause serious injuries anyway.

codrus wrote:

Beer Baron wrote: I think that is what he was saying. If only fired vertically, it will fall strait down at terminal velocity of roughly 200mph (180fps). If you fire at an angle, the horizontal component will add a lot more velocity (energy) when it hits.

Terminal velocity is terminal velocity -- the drag from the air doesn't care if the bullet is going straight up or at an angle. The difference is that when fired straight up the bullet will briefly stop, and may well tumble after that. If it's tumbling, it's going to have more drag, and thus a lower terminal velocity. Also, for certain rounds, terminal velocity is fast enough to cause serious injuries anyway.

Gravity only pulls straight down, go back to your physics notes, break it into components. If its moving any direction but straight down, its still carrying momentum imparted by the gun. How much depends on the distance traveled, initial velocity, drag, and the angle it was fired at.

Ranger50 wrote: I still say, where is the crime? I don't dispute the fact someone is no longer able to function and be productive on this great planet. But are there any facts to prove there is negligence? All we "know" is a bullet came out of the sky and caused a death. I remember a story years ago where a women got shot in the leg out on a golf course. The bullet came from a firing range with all the proper precautions in place a mile away. AFAIK, no charges were ever filed or, if they were, they were misdemeanors. How are we to say this possibly isn't the case? We are short on facts and running far too much on emotion, which the writer wants to invoke.

you really can't see the difference here ? or are you just trying to stir the pot ?

In reply to wbjones:

I think he is trying to point out that we don't know where the bullet came from.....other than the air. How it ended up there is unknown.

A buddy got a new roof few years ago. Roofer dropped a couple of 9mm bullets into his hand. "What's this?"

"From your roof."

"Find these a lot?"

"All the time."

I don't think these morons think bullets disintegrate. I think that, when they think at all, they think: "This would be cool to do and the chances of this bullet hitting somebody are pretty low, and the chances of them finding me are even lower, so why worry?" Or, something equally stupid and selfish, and criminal.

Mythbusters did an episode on this back in 2006 and they confirmed that yes a shot fired in the air can most definitely fall back with lethal force. So the guys who fire shots in the air are definitely doing something dumb. They may not intend to hurt or kill someone but that's not the point as any attorney will tell you if you get in an accident and someone is injured.

chuckles wrote: Or, something equally stupid and selfish, and criminal.

Sums up why it's such common activity in the ghetto.

gamby wrote:

chuckles wrote: Or, something equally stupid and selfish, and criminal.

Sums up why it's such common activity in the ghetto.

you forgot drunk... this always happens on big celebritory holidays when drinking is involved