In reply to daeman:
I love the Air Force quote.
I did not serve but my wife was raised an AF brat as the youngest of 6 kids. She's the only kid who did not join the military or marry the military all as officers. The oldest as an Annapolis Grad helicopter pilot and the rest as AF.
They've all had good lives.
I jokingly call it The Chair Force since it seems they all have either an assigned plane driver's seat or a specific desk job.
I'm going to be the voice of dissent (mostly because I think it's important to think about both sides) and say that he should think very hard about this. I've watched several people throw away some significant potential by enlisting. They were very limited by the options presented to them in the service. If you can't figure out what you want to do with yourself then someone assigning you a career is unlikely to be satisfying. Frequently people they get out after 4-8 years with very specific training that defines their csreer lathe for the rest of their lives. The people that enlist rather than go to college first are even more limited.
It's not for everyone. It's hell for some. Hell that you're stuck in for 4-6 years and that's very wearing on people. Depression and suicide are a very real concern. My sister was Navy enlisted and killed herself three years in. There were a LOT of mitigating factors, but that world didn't have the support network in place to help people that were suffering. There was an expectation of just sucking it up and dealing with it or taking whatever pills they prescribed you until you were 'better'.
Most people in this thread are talking positively about service and I think it is positive for most, but it isn't always, and most of the people I've met who are successful with service in their backgrounds would have been successful anyway becsuse they had the drive to do well, not because they served.
Your son will probably do well. But it's not as simple as 'join and be happy and successful'.
I'm not sure what your son's desires are, but the USAF has pretty continual needs in security forces(who provide security for the other branches too), cyber security, and the medical fields.
My FIL and BIL were both Marines. FIL was disappointed they wouldn't let him go kill people in Vietnam(his words), and instead he was station driving trucks out in Cali, which lead to him having a stint with the Hell's Angels. My BIL separated after his 4-years were up, feeling as though their end of the commitment was not upheld, and he ended up on death-row(commuted to life) for murder. I also have an uncle who was a Marine and received a purple heart in Vietnam - he could never talk about the war after he returned, though he did write a memoir about it that was quite graphic.
The USMC is an incredible force - one that our country needs - but it seems like even more of a life-shaping experience than the other branches. Whether that ends up a good vs. bad experience is hard to know ahead of time.
I can only ad .01¢ here, not 2, because I've never been in the armed forces. I have however spent years and years of my life working around former sailors (a hand full of airmen too), so much so that I think I should get a half credit for service.
Anyway, I'll cut straight to my point. They all came out with valuable technical skills that translated in secure good paying jobs, and most, if not all of thier sanity still intact. I can't say that about many of the former Marines and soldiers that I've known.
I enlisted in the Navy while in high school, went in August after the summer off. If I were 17 and had to do it again, I would probably go Coast Guard. It offers experiences and training more applicable to everyday life. I cooked for officers on a nuke submarine.
Whatever it is, get it in writing. If possible get a guarantee of an "A School" so you have a designated skill and not just another deck hand or ground pounder.
After the enlistment I worked in restaurants for a few years but ended up as a machinist making prototype weaponry for the Army. As a veteran, I kept my job with only one day on the job where a non-vet with 40 years service got the gate. Also, as a veteran, I didn't pay property taxes for the first ten years I owned my house, an excemption that varies State to State, even county to county.
With our forces spread all over the world and the type of battles being fought, being a Marine would make me nervous. I'd rather sit off shore and lob shells in.
Let us know how this ends.
Dan
Interesting that nobody has suggested to look into ROTC.
If one is REALLY into being a serviceman, I may be off base, but my impression is that the better careers are as an actual officer, and that more "biased" opportunities are there form them after retirement (G-jobs all have veteran preferences).
ROTC would be a path to being an officer pretty quickly and not having to qualify for a service academy. And my impression is that it's far easier than going to officer training while being a non-com.
My wife's cousin joined the Marines right out of high school. He was a skinny little kid, but scrappy. He grew up on a farm and was used to hard work and enjoyed being outside. He knew college wasn't for him. I think he is infantry at the moment, not sure if he is on a particular career path or not. He got married pretty young, and lives on base housing, and by all reports is doing well. Many kids his age who stayed home and didn't go to college found a couch to crash on and opiates to abuse, so in my book he is WAY ahead of the curve.
I have not been in the military - because of advice I was given by family with scars from the sort of work you get when you are conscripted during war time so... probably not relevant to today's all volunteer military.
But, the young are dopey. The pamphlet says "Serving your country" and "Fighting for freedom" but that is marketing. It gets them in the door. You are accepting a contract to give a large chunk of time to the bully arm of the US Government and doing whatever it is you agreed to (and a bunch of stuff you didn't think of) when you signed up. If it were my son, and it very well may be in 6 months, I'd be trying to impress some selfishness on his upfront deal-making and be reading/translating the small print for him if I could. Maybe even offering to pay for 2 years of college beforehand to improve his bargaining position for better skills training, etc.
Good luck to him whatever he decides to do.
My great grandfather was an English Dough-Boy in WW1, my grandfather was in the US Coast Guard in WW2, my father was in the Navy during Vietnam, his brother the Marines same time and their baby brother did a career in the Air Force from 1980-2005. I enlisted in the Army in '89 and deployed to the gulf for Desert Storm. Having been exposed to a fair amount of the world, college, working for both the civilian sector and government my advice is this:
Enlist. Take advantage of all the training offered, reclassify every few years and learn something new. Go to college while serving (cool program) and get a degree in something that offers a direct commission. Life happens whether we plan for it or not and being able to "retire" at 40 and draw a check for the next 40 years on top of whatever you decide to do post service is a very nice situation to put yourself in. Personally I'd go Air Force but any branch will serve as a vehicle to set a young person up for a win.
As said by others, you get out of the service what you put into it. Play the long game and you'll win, make a plan early and stick to it FTMFW.
Nothing useful to add, but the mention of the Navy made me think of this (sound is horrible, but you get the point):
The entire four years I was in, I earned a total of $18,000. That's $4500/year! (1971 money) But I had an apartment, a decent car and a good life. How else would I have seen Naples and LaMaddalena? Toured around South America, through the Straits of Magellen or Ft. Lauderdale during spring break on a sub?
I guess even Bayonne, NJ is wonderful once you get out of Kansas.
Me getting my Dolphins from the Captain. I couldn't find photos of the sisters I spend the day with in Valparaiso, Chile; had a picnic with the family, home made wine, great tour of the city, experiences you buy.
I can only comment on my time in the army and my observations on it all but here we go,
First, what is his personality like? If he is always competitive and hard working he will do well in any service but the more he is on any given side the better he could fit in any one, In other words a hard working corn fed guy/gal from a farm will generally do better within a marine/army life style, but if he/she is more of a top of the class competitor the air force/navy life style could much better suit what they are looking for.
Second, no matter what you do its their decision where they go but try and get them to talk with as many people you know that have lower enlisted experience in any service, I will say this on a personal note, had i gone in the air force like a few of my friends did i am almost positive i would have still been in to this day (Would have been only 6 years from my first retirement.......
)
Third, It will open your eyes to many different options in life then you might have never had with someone holding your hand and guiding you (yes you are still guided by basic standards, but you are responsible for you and with time others under you)
No matter what happens just be there for them, this will be the hardest time of their lives and they will realize with time this starting phase is ultimately a cake walk and with heed the words said during the early years, at least I have.
The pay in cash is not great but you get free housing, free meals, free medical. Cheap things at the PX.
In the Air Force, I once flew almost all the way from Texas to NYS free. Just have to hitch a ride in the right direction.
In basic we took all kinds of aptitude tests. I ended up being an instructor in aircraft maintenance.
914Driver wrote: The entire four years I was in, I earned a total of $18,000. That's $4500/year! (1971 money) But I had an apartment, a decent car and a good life. How else would I have seen Naples and LaMaddalena? Toured around South America, through the Straits of Magellen or Ft. Lauderdale during spring break on a sub? I guess even Bayonne, NJ is wonderful once you get out of Kansas. Me getting my Dolphins from the Captain. I couldn't find photos of the sisters I spend the day with in Valparaiso, Chile; had a picnic with the family, home made wine, great tour of the city, experiences you buy.
$4,500 in 1971 is worth about $26k now. Figure that room and board is worth about $10k annually (today), so that is up to $36k. Free food, what... maybe $4000 a year? So you're at about $40k annually in effective income. But with much lower taxes.
Not bad, really.
On the "20 years and retire" thing, it's not an automatic thing. One of my friends was forced out of the Army just short of 18 years at the rank of Major because they were cutting back (about 2 years ago) and no longer needed his skillset, which was logistics. No more major deployments of troops and equipment to the Middle East, I guess. He gets a portion of his pension, but it's less than half, IIRC. The point being that just because you join, that doesn't mean you automatically get to stay in for 20 years and retire.
I believe if you serve 10 years you also get health coverage for life (right?)
You also get to use USAA for insurance (which historically has been good by I think might has slipped a bit since they are advertising a lot and allowing enlisted to use it).
Is your son interested in going to college first then getting commissioned as an officer in the Marines? That's what I did on the advice of my father who was an enlisted marine. Like someone previously said there is a big difference in a colonel or captain telling you about the Corps than a corporal or sergeant. Once I was commissioned as a 2nd LT, I saw what my dad was talking about. I got out as a captain and found the job market pretty wide open. There is no other experience that I can think of better than leading a squad, platoon or company of hard charging marines. He'll never forget the experience whichever route he decides to take.
One thing I forgot to add. Back then most of the marine officers either drove MGs, Triumphs, Jags (Navy Doctors mainly.), and some Porsches (924/944). I quickly fell in the ranks and purchased a Java Green 1976 TR6. Best purchase I ever made. That's also how I got started in sports cars.
Semper FI!
mtn wrote:914Driver wrote: The entire four years I was in, I earned a total of $18,000. That's $4500/year! (1971 money) But I had an apartment, a decent car and a good life. How else would I have seen Naples and LaMaddalena? Toured around South America, through the Straits of Magellen or Ft. Lauderdale during spring break on a sub? I guess even Bayonne, NJ is wonderful once you get out of Kansas. Me getting my Dolphins from the Captain. I couldn't find photos of the sisters I spend the day with in Valparaiso, Chile; had a picnic with the family, home made wine, great tour of the city, experiences you buy.$4,500 in 1971 is worth about $26k now. Figure that room and board is worth about $10k annually (today), so that is up to $36k. Free food, what... maybe $4000 a year? So you're at about $40k annually in effective income. But with much lower taxes. Not bad, really.
Not only that, $18,000 invested in the S&P 500 in 1971 would be $1.5 million today. Not a bad nest egg if you're savings minded.
alfadriver wrote: Interesting that nobody has suggested to look into ROTC.
My younger brother did Naval ROTC. It was quite a ride. Nuclear subs, living in Japan, Singapore, Hawaii, Boston, San Diego. They sent him to MIT for a graduate degree.
He retired last year, at age 44, as a Commander, and almost immediately started his second career in Vancouver working in some capacity with submarines. He was a logistics officer in San Diego, managing submarine refits.
The bullet points sound nice but it was many years of non-stop working. San Diego was particularly brutal. His quality of life is many times better as a civilian (especially one drawing a Navy pension!)
Thanks for the responses!
I'll sit down with him tonight and let him read through these. Then, if he has any question, I'll post them up.
He isn't in any hurry to make a decision and has plenty of time to do the research necessary to make an informed decision.
I don't know if he has considered ROTC. Unfortunately, he takes after me in the school department, so good grades aren't his strong suit. He would probably need to do two years at a tech college before moving to a mainstream school.
We are at the beginning of looking into this. It's something he has been murmuring about for a year or two and he is at that point in life.
I will say that from my experience some of the best officers were enlisted at one time and be sure to look into being a Warrant Officer. If I had my Army carrier to do over that is where I would head. I currently have an IT job in the Army and the Warrants have the best of both worlds. They get a much better retirement than us enlisted folk, get a lot of the same perks as the commissioned officers but are insulated from both sides to a certain extent. And if job skills outside the military are the end goal Warrants are the way to go.
This is a little bit off subject but if he is somewhat mechanically apt , a welding certificate or associates degree from a community college is something that can be useful no matter what path he eventually takes. Many of my best students have a history of not doing well in school.
aircooled wrote: I believe if you serve 10 years you also get health coverage for life (right?) You also get to use USAA for insurance (which historically has been good by I think might has slipped a bit since they are advertising a lot and allowing enlisted to use it).
Umm, no you don't get health coverage for life except for military related injuries. Being retired army w/20 yrs. even I have to pay for military health insurance. Granted it's like $260 a year but still have to pay even though free health care was originally part of the benefits for staying in.
Yeah, USAA insurance has a very good reputation.
He's already USAA eligible since I was an AF brat. Personally I'd rather him go in the AF out of all of this but I'm the mama and that's what I know. He's thinking that this is the best way to go and do college later because he's not ready for college as yet.
alfadriver wrote: Interesting that nobody has suggested to look into ROTC. If one is REALLY into being a serviceman, I may be off base, but my impression is that the better careers are as an actual officer, and that more "biased" opportunities are there form them after retirement (G-jobs all have veteran preferences). ROTC would be a path to being an officer pretty quickly and not having to qualify for a service academy. And my impression is that it's far easier than going to officer training while being a non-com.
Oldopelguy did on page 1. He makes a great point.
oldopelguy wrote: Navy vet here, nuclear electrician. Nothing he has heard from officers translates to how his life would be as enlisted. It's like asking a plantation owner his thoughts on growing cotton. If he wants that lifestyle he needs to get a degree before joining or go ROTC.
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