the Dirty Jobs guy just makes too much sense sometimes

My problem with that is that "giving an honest effort and not sponging off of others" has become a self-deceiving cover for "being an exploitable sucker who keeps coming back for more and always blames himself" cruelly playing off of the work ethic of honest, hard-working people. Point 8 is the summation of this problem, an unintentional recipe for a slippery slope towards ever-worse working conditions and pay. This has played out before many times in history and it's never worked. It's playing out right now in fact, and most of us have missed out on the spoils of the digital revolution because of it. Don't mistake the scraps you got for spoils.

TL;DR I thought the philosophy of the "American Dream" was wide freaking open to being misused to enable and empower exploitation before, and Mike Rowe's retread doesn't fix this. We can agree to disagree.

Mike's main point, however, is that hard work, and labor intensive jobs, are not bad things. We've got a generation or two that has grown up thinking that labor is a bad word and jobs that might pay good, but are hard to do, are beneath them and that they should get cushy 6 figure jobs right out of school.

We need laborers, too, and not everyone needs higher math and english skills or score well on school tests to earn a good living doing harder labor intensive jobs.

In reply to JoeyM:

As someone that sort of splits between Gen X and whatever it is after that (Y?) I really get tired of the media's focus on trying to group people. I think it makes it easier to sell more nonsense this way; us vs. them works when you can convince people that they're not in this together and the population is actually a bunch of groups that see the world very differently.

I was born in '78 but spent about a decade in college as an undergrad, finally getting out of that in '06. I think most of Rowe's 12 item list is spot on, but I think young people today (more than any previous generation in the US) have been fed a ton of different information and ideas about what their lives should be like. My last year of college, '05 to '06 I lived in a mostly freshman dorm (long story) and as the wise age of 27, I saw a ton of confused kids up there. Confused and hopeful, but some of them were definitely hoping for the wrong things, and a lot of them were there because their parent's paid their way. So why not go? Since consequences have been mostly removed from their lives and college has been sold as a time to get laid and go to parties, why not attend for a couple years to "figure it all out"?

Something that I did hear Rowe say once, and I'm paraphrasing here, is that he would meet people with seemingly horrible jobs. Dirty work, come home smelling like things you do not want to smell like, all that. And he said the people doing those jobs were some of the happiest he's ever met. Having spent a lot of time in cube farms since graduation, I can totally see it, but he's seemingly the only guy in the world trying to tell people about this.

Sorry for being rambly.

Chris_V wrote: Mike's main point, however, is that hard work, and labor intensive jobs, are not bad things. We've got a generation or two that has grown up thinking that labor is a bad word and jobs that might pay good, but are hard to do, are beneath them and that they should get cushy 6 figure jobs right out of school.

Today's young people that are entering the workforce today have had this sort of thing drilled into their heads by members of previous generations. They've been told that they need that six-figure job to feel comfortable and able to "enjoy life".

pres589 wrote: Dirty work, come home smelling like things you do not want to smell like, all that. And he said the people doing those jobs were some of the happiest he's ever met. Having spent a lot of time in cube farms since graduation, I can totally see it, but he's seemingly the only guy in the world trying to tell people about this.

Matthew Crawford (shop class as soul craft) is definitely talking about the situation. The difference is that Mike Rowe is DOING something about it.

BTW, Jay Leno has written about it, too. I don't know anything about Leno's scholarship program, though.

By establishing college scholarships, I'm just trying to open up another area for kids-an area that they may not know is available. When you're a kid, you always think you're the only one who thinks about anything. [.....] I like the idea of making the job of a mechanic a respectable position. In my mind, I rank a machinist higher than a computer operator. But I think in America's mind, a machinist is like a Jiffy Lube guy-nothing against Jiffy Lube, but these are guys who have only the most basic automotive skills. The machinist's craft just isn't acknowledged, probably because it's hard, meticulous, often dirty work. People don't understand it.

In reply to pres589:

Spot on. We wouldn't have so many kids scared of hard labor if their parents had worked their entire lives in an office. Instead, most of their parents have worked their entire lives in a changing world, going from good career to layoff to unemployment to retirements being destroyed in the recession.

My parents/family are all blue collar. I am the only male in my family to graduate with a 4-year degree. My family pushed me to get an education because during their careers they saw the focus change from labor to management.

Why would the factory worker tell his kid to get a job at the factory when the average wage had gone from 30/hr to 10/hr during his father's career?

In reply to JoeyM:

Good on these guys for trying to expose the situation and improve it. Unfortunately the other voices are louder and many times more common. Are parents buying in? Are parents acting as if American machinists are important?

Maybe another thing is our inability to identify good blue-collar workers at a young age.

A farmer might be able to determine that his lazy kid will always be lazy and probably shouldn't take over the family farm. His older brother is a better candidate.

There are a lot of kids out there who have no idea what they want to do with their lives. If they're smart (or even if they aren't) we send them to college. Parents don't look at their kid and say "you should be a machinist because of all that stuff you build", instead, they say "you should be an engineer."

Engineering isn't building stuff. It's the theory and science behind building stuff. I'm terrible with math, but I like building stuff.

I thought I wanted to be a mechanic because I loved tearing apart mechanical things and putting them back together, but after working in a shop for a few years I realized that I hated being stuck in a shop with a bunch of ornery opinionated dudes.

Now I've got a college education, a decent job, and the (very very small) beginnings of a career...only I'm learning my second "life lesson" that I hate working in a cubical.

At the same time, I've learn about the downsides of job hopping. Sure every job I've had has been a step in the right direction, but it also affects HUMAN RESOURCES opinions of me.

How do you get kids to experience the multitudes of "boring jobs" while they are young?

PHeller wrote: How do you get kids to experience the multitudes of "boring jobs" while they are young?

It used to be that this is what kids did during the summer. Now they are shipped off to 'X' camp. (e.g. robotics camp, space camp, band camp)

JoeyM wrote:

PHeller wrote: How do you get kids to experience the multitudes of "boring jobs" while they are young?

It used to be that this is what kids did during the summer. Now they are shipped off to 'X' camp. (e.g. robotics camp, space camp, band camp)

For the past 5 years, at least, it's not being shipped off that's the problem. It's that almost ZERO employers will hire kids under 18 (because of liability) or with no job experience (because they don't have to).

Yeah, Space Camp is really at the root of all of these issues. Damn you Space Camp!

Duke wrote: For the past 5 years, at least, it's not being shipped off that's the problem. It's that almost ZERO employers will hire kids under 18 (because of liability) or with no job experience (because they don't have to).

So apply for an unpaid internship to get experience. Heck, I did that back in the 1990s.

pres589 wrote: Yeah, Space Camp is really at the root of all of these issues. Damn you Space Camp!

No, that might actually be a good thing. (reference my earlier posts about Neil Degrasse Tyson and getting kids interested in space.) The problem is that a lot of people think "everything I do must always be fun" and view adversity as a problem instead of realizing that it is simply part of life..

So working a sucky job your entire life is the answer? That's a sure-fire way to insure a quality workforce.

No, you want your employees to like what they do and stick around. How do you get employees who stay around if they have no idea what kind of job they want?

You will not find an internship who will accept students outside of a certain field. I couldn't be a forestry intern without a forestry background. I couldn't get an internship as an engineering aide without an engineering background.

Very few companies even allow "work shadowing" anymore, and if youre not a kid? Forget it. You're just a creep.

Gasoline wrote: I have a friend in the TV business that worked with Mr. Rowe. Said he was not the cool "down to earth guy" and was actually a AHo.

maybe your friend is lazy?

JoeyM wrote:

Duke wrote: For the past 5 years, at least, it's not being shipped off that's the problem. It's that almost ZERO employers will hire kids under 18 (because of liability) or with no job experience (because they don't have to).

So apply for an unpaid internship to get experience. Heck, I did that back in the 1990s.

I have 2 daughters, currently 21 and 17. Both required community volunteer hours to graduate from high school (I'll leave my rant on that topic for another time). But you'd be amazed how difficult it is to find a place willing to take on sub-18-year-olds, even for free.

Duke wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

Duke wrote: For the past 5 years, at least, it's not being shipped off that's the problem. It's that almost ZERO employers will hire kids under 18 (because of liability) or with no job experience (because they don't have to).

So apply for an unpaid internship to get experience. Heck, I did that back in the 1990s.

I have 2 daughters, currently 21 and 17. Both required community volunteer hours to graduate from high school (I'll leave my rant on that topic for another time). But you'd be amazed how difficult it is to find a place willing to take on sub-18-year-olds, even for free.

Duke, check your PMs

JoeyM wrote:

Duke wrote: I have 2 daughters, currently 21 and 17 ... But you'd be amazed how difficult it is to find a place willing to take on sub-18-year-olds, even for free.

Duke, check your PMs

Pimp Alert !!!

When I was young, everybody told me that the "best" thing I could do was go to college. It was the easy button to a bright future.

They were not wrong, exactly, but they could have been a bit more specific. Having the head and aptitude for certain fields and getting a degree in them (hard sciences, computer science, etc.) would have proved their vision of the future right. Like so many kids, though, I didn't have an exact path picked out, so I got into school and kind of thrashed around a bit trying to find out what worked for me.

That's where the real problem is. I think being able to try (and fail) at things like vocational courses, computer science, biology, etc. should be encouraged and allowed. People could find out what they are good at and what they like and if things go well for them, it will turn out to be the same thing and they can make a career out of it.

Our educational system does not encourage that sort of thing. There is too much pressure to pass tests instead of actually learning.

OK, I'm oversimplifying a bit. But my point is that without actually having a chance to weld something, how are kids going to learn that is something they might like and excel at?

PHeller wrote: So working a sucky job your entire life is the answer? That's a sure-fire way to insure a quality workforce. No, you want your employees to like what they do and stick around. How do you get employees who stay around if they have no idea what kind of job they want? You will not find an internship who will accept students outside of a certain field. I couldn't be a forestry intern without a forestry background. I couldn't get an internship as an engineering aide without an engineering background. Very few companies even allow "work shadowing" anymore, and if youre not a kid? Forget it. You're just a creep.

I can see your reasoning but you are forgetting something. There are many jobs that are necessary that are nasty horrible jobs but they have to be done. Many things that are critical to keep our society going. No one likes these jobs, no one dreams of these jobs when they are young, yet they are necessary. I would rather have someone who is competent and takes pride in the work they do, no matter what it is, doing these jobs than someone who is stuck doing these jobs because they aren't capable of bettering themselves.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

Duke wrote: I have 2 daughters, currently 21 and 17 ... But you'd be amazed how difficult it is to find a place willing to take on sub-18-year-olds, even for free.

Duke, check your PMs

Pimp Alert !!!

Nah, I was just giving him some ideas for ways to get the kids positions as unpaid interns in college science departments, if that happens to be something they would be interested in. It's a lot better to find that out now than to go through school pursing a science degree and then finding out that you hate the work.

Brett_Murphy wrote: That's where the real problem is. I think being able to try (and fail) at things like vocational courses, computer science, biology, etc. should be encouraged and allowed. People could find out what they are good at and what they like and if things go well for them, it will turn out to be the same thing and they can make a career out of it.

I think almost every of my friends in university changed directions over the course of their studies. And interestingly, that was after an extra year of high school compared to now. It's definitely something that people should do, be willing to explore different paths. Of course, it can lead to full-time students. But not always.

Duke wrote: I have 2 daughters, currently 21 and 17. Both required community volunteer hours to graduate from high school (I'll leave my rant on that topic for another time). But you'd be amazed how difficult it is to find a place willing to take on sub-18-year-olds, even for free.

That sucks to hear... I started working at part-time minimum wage jobs the day I turned 16. I like to believe that experience has given me an appreication for the relatively cushy and decent paying job I have now, despite the fact I'm one of the lowest salaried people in the office.

Even McDonalds? A friend's daughter was working at the local one near their home when she was in HS, but she's 25 now so that was a few years ago.

If I'm being honest, I should have gone into the military when I graduated HS, like my father before me (Vietnam) and his father (WW2). I simply was not ready for college in the least. Of course, that would have put me in the middle of Desert Storm, but so beit.

nicksta43 wrote: I can see your reasoning but you are forgetting something. There are many jobs that are necessary that are nasty horrible jobs but they have to be done. Many things that are critical to keep our society going. No one likes these jobs, no one dreams of these jobs when they are young, yet they are necessary. I would rather have someone who is competent and takes pride in the work they do, no matter what it is, doing these jobs than someone who is stuck doing these jobs because they aren't capable of bettering themselves.

Speaking for my generation of "millenials" (I'm 31). A lot of my friends want these jobs, and are having trouble getting them. We want to work beverage production, and electrical lineman, and waste water treatment jobs. We can't get them without very very specific training or even at all because there is too much competition. A good buddy is an Eagle Scout with a 4-year degree and work experience in assorted manual or retail jobs, and he is genuinely concerned about his chances at landing a job on the bottling line with a brewery that treats its employees well.

What people lack is the flexibility to take 1-2 years to train for a job that may or may not still be there when they finish, or to relocate across the entire length of the country for a decent job.

We don't feel we deserve 6-figures and stock options for being shining stars that show up for 30hours/week. We do feel that we should be able to work one 40-50hr/week job that leaves us enough time, energy, and money to live independently and indulge a few personal interests (raise a family or cultivate some hobbies), for a company that treats us with some amount of human respect, and that we shouldn't have to travel more than half a state away to find it. Maybe that is crazy at this point.

Changes are afoot for Internship Programs.
Conde Nast ends intern program after suit over federal labor laws.