The world needs love.

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

... social media has a lot to do with it. ...

Remember, when you talk about social media, you are many times talking about a VERY small (generally very non-representative) portion of society (it only takes a few a-holes to do a lot of damage):

Twitter user statistics

There are 330m monthly active users and 145 million daily users.

Of those, 44% made an account and left before ever sending a tweet.

Based on US accounts, 10% of users write 80% of tweets.

....

Journalists make up 24.6% of verified accounts.

....

79% of accounts are held outside of the U.S.

https://www.brandwatch.com/blog/twitter-stats-and-statistics/

In reply to aircooled :

I agree totally but unfortunately there are a lot of people who end up listening to these outliers hence why we have Flat Earthers etc

Or people that think that calling a black hole a black hole is racist , which apparently has happened

In reply to aircooled :

I'd be interested in seeing the user stats of Facebook. Cause that is every bit as toxic and I am pretty sure bigger.

Plus comments on news articles are the worst.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

I don't think anyone is saying society is worse. But I'll go out on a limb and say most people feel that common courtesy, kindness, and compassion for strangers is in a bit of a slump. It's terrific that we have less spousal abuse, racism, and many other examples of people treating each other poorly. But can't we have that AND be nicer to each other on a day to day basis? 

It would be nice to have both. But I personally think that the decline of religion has little to do with and far more with the rise of social media. It has supercharged political divides and allows people to be dicks to each other anonymously. At some point that will spill over into the real world.

But tbh I don't see that much nastier in real life then I remember say 15-20 years ago.

I completely agree that social media is a huge part of the problem. But I don't think it's a completely either/or example either. Social media can be a cause, it can be an example, it can be both. Perhaps the decline already started and social media is just a magnifying glass? Perhaps it facilitated the move of people from their old groups to their new groups? Either way, when I say the way people treat others is on the decline, I'm not counting social media. If I was, there would be no argument,  we are in decline. In my real world non scientific observations, we have steadily been treating each other worse. We aren't as friendly on the good end, and what used to be rare occurrences of poor behavior are becoming far too common. Now, I'm sure there are regional factors involved- some areas are worse and if you live in Pleasantville you may not be able to relate at all. I'll give you some examples that used to be rare but are now common place.

Restaurant or retail workers being harassed by customers

Youth sports. I don't remember ever hearing anything negative from parents when I was a kid. Been to a little league game lately? I coach soccer. It has changed drastically. We have field marshalls now that watch the parents and ask them to leave. We have refs quit in the middle of the game due to treatment by parents. 
 

I have three school aged kids, and many nieces and nephews. I have a lot of teachers in my family. When I was a kid, we had a rumor about a kid that one time cussed out a teacher. Now that is a daily occurrence, and assaulting a teacher is not uncommon. 

I'm a nice person. I'm friendly, treat others with respect, say please and thank you, and treat people that I interact with appreciation. That used to be normal, I didn't stand out. Now people look at me like they have two heads, like I'm exceptional because I extended them common courtesy. Some are apprehensive, like what do I want from them. I haven't changed, so that tells me that society has. 

There were a lot of words here but I deleted them. I'll just leave this instead. 

“A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.” -Robert Heinlein. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I'll be honest. I am only 32 but I don't know things have changed that much from when I was kid. I remember problems with adults at soccer games. I remember teachers get swung at or cussed at. I can only speak from my experience. But I have also seen plenty of kindness. Sometime it is easier to forget about those things.

As far as church, I grew up in church. But a bit part of why I left is because of the way far too many people that claimed to be Christian acted and as far as I can tell, church isnt helping a lot of people act any kinder towards their fellow humans. Not to smear everyone in church cause plenty are genuinely good people and church do a lot of good acts. I am not convinced the decline of people going to church has anything to do with the decline of politeness cause it seems like the church population seems to mimic the general population pretty well.

93EXCivic said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I am not convinced the decline of people going to church has anything to do with the decline of politeness cause it seems like the church population seems to mimic the general population pretty well.

Dingdingdingding.   Nothing else I would contribute fits in the rules of this forum.  

Link

Let's use 2019's pre COVID number 146 investigations as a baseline...annualizing 2021's 487 investigations as of June 20th gives us 1,046 investigations or a 616% increase.

I imagine that the mask mandate accounts for much / all of the increase but it still shows just how little it takes to set people off these days..."be awesome to each other". 

In reply to Crxpilot :

93EXCivic said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I am not convinced the decline of people going to church has anything to do with the decline of politeness cause it seems like the church population seems to mimic the general population pretty well.

Dingdingdingding.   Nothing else I would contribute fits in the rules of this forum.  

You know, I'm genuinely surprised at this. I thought it was pretty obvious that a major recent societal change- one directly linked to the topic we are discussing- would have some influence on the topic. Yet is seems a large number of people soundly reject even the possibility. There are countless studies on this subject just a Google search away. I'm not linking any of them, I don't have a way to vet them for bias or accuracy. I'm sure most of them are biased one way or the other. There was lots of variation of opinion on what role was played, but not one concluded that it was insignificant. It's interesting to me, that today there are great battles being fought as to what you can even mention to kids in school for fear that they will be influenced. Yet the church indoctrinated generations of kids and people believe that it had no influence. I don't mean this as an argument, I'm no longer trying to convince anyone, I just learned something new. For the record, I never intended this as advocating for the church. I actually find it pretty ironic that I'm the one the argued the positive influence it has had on society. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I think it depends on what situation you were raised in. Most people that are religious believe that it's a big impact on people's lives because it's a big impact on theirs and the reverse is true as well.

I find faith vs religion to be a fairly fascinating subject. I actually wrote a song that I made somewhat ambiguous lyrically to see what people thought it was about. Most the time if a person was religious they felt it was a religious song about finding faith. If you weren't religious you heard it as a song about wondering why people think you have to be religious to be good. If you were formerly religious they heard it as a song lamenting the time wasted on religion. Others hear it as a song about great loss. It was really fascinating to me, I'll post it if you guys want but it was kind of an eye opener to me.

Religion in general is a touchy subject, I like that here we didn't nearly come to e-blows over it. I think faith is deeply personal and don't think anyone or anything should get in the way of your personal faith, I feel like most here agree

In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :

Definitely post the song! I also find that subject fascinating, how different people interpret things differently based on their own circumstances. I love when I hear an interview with an artist about a song, and realize that I heard it completely differently than intended. I find it funny when you learn a wedding song really belongs at a funeral. Although I'm sure some would argue that they got it right. 

I'd wager on this whole topic- not just the religion part- that there is a certain percentage of the population on both ends, good and bad, that are not easily influenced by any outside forces and will be good or bad people regardless. I'd also wager that those people tend seek out others on their end of the spectrum, and their behavior seems "normal" to them. So that leaves us with those in the middle, who respond to outside influences in varying degrees. I'd suppose we could all agree that outside influences overall have changed dramatically over the last couple generations. 

Boost_Crazy said:

Yet the church indoctrinated generations of kids and people believe that it had no influence.

I'm saying I don't think the church (pick one) had a POSITIVE influence in many (but not all) for reasons beyond the scope of the forum. 

I do agree that the sense of community and the peer pressure that brought did control the way people behaved. This can happen without the influence of churches, as it does in many other areas of the world. For example the societal peer pressure in a secular country such as China is the primary influence on the way people conduct themselves. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I am not saying that church hasn't had a positive influence on society. I am saying from my personal experience I don't believe the sliding attendeance of church is really a reason for the general nastiness in society. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Here is a Spotify link, hopefully it works for you. The song ends with an improv jam that's pretty long, the first 2:30 has the lyrics I'm talking about 

....And Then It Rains

I will say for a church, or any group, to be effective it needs to be distinct.  As metrics kick in and messages get watered down, the distinction fades and you get apathy.  So that big church down the street may have 2000 members but very few changed lives and very little impact on the local community.

We need love, yes.  Absolutely.  But there are true and distinct and marvelous reasons to love....that are being pushed to the margins.  I'm hopeful that society will swing back toward that salt and light.  It's always going to be there.  PM me any time 

This is not an indictment on religion, but this is how I see it.  Practice your religion, but the first time anyone makes an argument about "christian nation" or "christian morality," I cry foul.  Above all, this is NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE HERE OR ANY INDIVIDUAL.  This is a generalization that is an offshoot of the previous "not all christians.... not all religions..." these are generalizations of how the collective of individuals within a specific group can end up having corrosive effects on things.  Not the individual.

If you don't want to read the whole thing, I'm basically saying, "yes, Vajingo... the world does need more love.  The true Christ-like love that Jesus would have offered to every human, and not just the worthy ones who go to the right church and say the right words."

First words of the first Amendment to the Bill of Rights in the Constitution:  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...  The founding fathers were not Christian, and in fact neither were 70% or more of the people who invaded this continent.  The first real Christian evolution of the people who moved here wasn't until the late 1780s and actually didn't take a true foothold until the Civil War.   Ethan Allen was a spiritualist and scientist and at his own wedding swore his vows to the laws of nature.  George Washington was an Agnostic and originally wrote the words of the first amendment as "freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion."  Thomas Payne (also spelled Paine) who was considered the catalyst of the revolution was quoted as saying  "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."  John Adams openly stated in a treaty under Adams' administration with unanimous approval by the Senate, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."  He also labeled members of the Christian clergy as having "the pretended sanctity of absolute dunces."  He also labeled the church as nothing but a means of making money: "Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence."

Complete sermon with citations can be found here

I have dozens of other examples, and NONE of them are an indictment of religion.  I support anyone's right to practice their religion.  Where I take exception is when they use their religion to try to force me to live by their rules, which, is by it's very nature a blatant violation of the first amendment.  Here we are 250 years after our country was formed by Agnostics, Atheists, and Deists, and now the predominant religion of the land keeps saying that "this is a christian country?"  Whaaaa?  Never was, never will be.  They just THINK it is because they have been the dominant religion.

Timeline:

Article 1 (freedom of religion) 1789:  freedom of/from religion.  No one opposed this to any known history except a very vocal George Washington who wanted religion all but banned from the nation.  Very few people were religious at the time, and even of those who were religious types didn't even really know what Christianity was.  Most of the churches of colonial origin were a mashup of Judaism and Quakerism and were more god-centered than messiah-centered.

Article 13 (abolition of slavery)  1863:  Lincoln abolishes slavery... with a twist.  As (historically assumed) a means of re-uniting the union and confederacy, Lincoln concedes the phrase "except for punishment of crime."  Who wanted that phrase?  White Christians.  They got to keep their slavery.  In other states like Texas, slavery wasn't fully abolished until 1865 after Union soldiers finally forced the issue.  Again, White Christians.

Article 14 in 1868 was to be the ultimate level playing field.  It stated: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It said, if you are a PERSON born here, you are a citizen and EQUAL with EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS.  Not a white person, not a male person, not a rich person, a PERSON.  In the late 1870s, rulings like Dredd Scott, Jim Crow, and various others continually denied not only the very same people just freed by the 13th, they denied the 14th, and all in the name of their personal Christian convictions which is a violation of the first amendment.  1950s/60s civil rights.  Who opposed it?  Southern Christians.  Who is the KKK?  Christians.  Women's lib in the 70s.  Who opposed it?  Conservative Christians, equally men and women.  ERA amendment in the 80s.  Who opposed it?  White Christians.  LGBTQ rights framed against the 14th amendment?  Christians say no way.  Women wanting some semblance of equal reproductive rights?  Christians go nuts, and not only don't give them any rights, but they actively fight to give leniency to rapists because they're nice boys who shouldn't have their records tarnished, or maybe she shouldn't have been wearing such tempting clothing.  The trouble now extends to the massive violation of the 14th with deporting American citizens who were born here of immigrant parents.  If you want to deport citizens, go for it... but you have to repeal the 14th first.

I'm all for freedom of religion and have at it any way you want.  My point is that if we're talking about religion making America a better place.... my contention is that ever since religion became a "thing" in the US, it has done nothing but very successfully destroyed so much progress that America is trying to be by actively fighting and violating with impunity as many constitutional rights as they possibly can.  Religion has fought to subvert the 14th amendment any way it can, complete with a conservative Christian majority on many supreme court dais rosters.  There is a really good reason we seem to have a racism and classism issue.  There is a reason we have the highest income imparity of all developed nations.  There is a reason we are lagging in infant mortality, healthcare, and medical research.  There is a reason why we we have been at war for 226 of our 244 year history.  We've been at war for 92% of our existence.  Cause?  Mostly white Christians.

Do all the religion-y things, but stop subverting the entire constitution with it.  You want a law that says "don't steal E36 M3," that's just common sense and doesn't require religion.  You want a law banning polygamy or polyandry? You want a law banning same sex marriage? Take a seat.  If you want to have the right to proudly celebrate your religion, you have no choice or right to do anything but sit down when someone else proudly celebrates theirs.  That's what America should be, and Christianity hasn't yielded the microphone for 225 years.  You don't see Jewish lawmakers trying to ban bacon and shrimp for everyone.  They just skip it on their own plates and let you enjoy yours.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I need more thumbs ups

I don't like to read Curtis posts because there are too many words.

Can we get a TLDR?

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

The US is not a Christian nation as clearly outlined by our Atheist and Agnostic founders, and yet the conglomerate Christian construct has actively fought for 150 years to subvert the constitution from a misguided belief that "freedom of religion" somehow means "freedom for the self-perceived best religion to impose its morality on the nation by not only ignoring the US constitution for the last 150 years, but by also blatantly violating the US constitution to forcibly juxtapose the US' superiority on the world, thereby imposing a net destruction of policy, social, economic, and world-relations, all for the hope of disallowing a man to marry a man, or a raped woman to have an abortion that threatens her life, or women to have equal pay, or for people of color to not get shot first/questions later, or voting rights, or (insert a few million other things),  and at the expense of the US being respected by nearly any country on the planet.

That work for you ?  

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

...

That work for you ?  

I read all of that. Thanks. AND I agree that the US should not be trying to force 'our' cultural values on other long-standing societies. (In my case, especially the ones that have rapidly been changing or are contentious within our own culture.) The LDS Church, Baptists, Coca Cola, and Google can play their culture games, but not with our tax dollars. ...yet they do.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Exactly, and well spoken.