Tipping is starting to really pick me

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

Since I started this discussion, and you wish to end it on your terms, I feel the need to clarify my complaint which you perhaps did not read in the first place. I have grudgingly tipped appropriate amounts all my life, back to when I was a student depending on tips 35 years ago. But the trend now is to demand increasingly large tips for increasingly less service in increasingly more industries. I object, and I do not consider myself a stingy mofo for objecting.  Did that message get across?

I'm with you on this. If you aren't bringing food to me at a table while I lounge indolently sucking down the beverage of my choice, no tip.

Except for the Subway guy. He's the owner and frequently is running the store by himself. I know how hard he works and he's really just a pleasant guy to talk with. 

I thought about this earlier but didn't want to go off topic. But since that ship has sailed, what is the accepted tipping policy at a restaurant when you're being served by the owner? I remember hearing it's in bad taste, and was also told the same by a restaurant owner

In reply to Peabody :

I can't speak to restaurants, but if you get a haircut by the shop owner, you're not supposed to tip.  But if you are served by an employee or independent barber that is just renting a station, it is suggested that you tip.

Peabody said:

I thought about this earlier but didn't want to go off topic. But since that ship has sailed, what is the accepted tipping policy at a restaurant when you're being served by the owner? I remember hearing it's in bad taste, and was also told the same by a restaurant owner

Duke said:

In reply to Peabody :

I can't speak to restaurants, but if you get a haircut by the shop owner, you're not supposed to tip.  But if you are served by an employee or independent barber that is just renting a station, it is suggested that you tip.

Tipping is bad for customers because it's confusing, exhibits A and B.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I'm not confused by either scenario.

I hate iPad registers. I'm running late for my train, haven't eaten all day, and there's a bakery in the station with no line. A get a cookie, it's $2.99. Tip choices are $1, $1,50, or $2. A tiny button at the bottom of the screen is no tip. It was a 30 second transaction. 

SV reX said:

I tip well.

However, I'm starting to get really pissed at automated tipping. The servers often don't receive this- it's a windfall for the restaurant that is never given to the servers. 

Ask servers how much they get.  Often it's $0 (or sometimes split among entire staff)

berkeley that. 

You should report the restaurant to the State AG.  That is almost certainly illegal.

I tip well for good service.  It is becoming more and more rare that people earn a tip.  This is a consequence of people getting $15/hr minimum wage working in food service, they make the same money if they do a poor job as they do if they do a good job.   

In reply to Toebra :

It's becoming rare to earn a tip because the service minimum hasn't budged for a long time.  It used to be that a tip was to grease the wheels.  Now it's pretty much expected because of the lower minimum wage.

The whole concept of tipping AFTER good service is a relatively recent development.  You used to slip a bill to the host of a restaurant to get a table faster, or slip a 5-spot to your driver for a fast commute.

You never waited tables did you?  

You provide the good service with the expectation that it will earn you a tip.  If you do not provide good service, you have no business expecting a tip.  It does not take too long to figure out who is going to tip you and who is not when you first lay eyes on them.  Yes, this is profiling, and it works the VAST majority of the time.  Everyone does a calculation similar to this every single day.  I made very good money waiting tables, at $2.85 an hour.  I earned more money as a result of providing better service, I did not get paid more as an incentive to work harder.  Did not always work though.  Willie Brown, the greatest grifter who ever lived, was the king of the legislature in California for many years, probably richer than Pelosi even.   He came in to the restaurant with a large group.  Told them up front that normally the tip would be included on a large party like that, but I like to earn my money, it was up to them to decide how much to tip, no automatic 15%.  Cost me $80 to wait on him.   He stiffed me, but they assumed you got at least 8%, even from a cheap SOB in a $5000 suit wearing $1000 shoes, on your charges.  Next time he came in, he asked for me to be their waiter, since I did such a good job last time.  I declined.  They told him I was too busy to take another table, so I made sure to hang around as much as possible, so he would know that was a lie.

The service minimum has changed though, it has gone down.  Oh, and minimum wage has gone up.

Stuff like this is why they can never get communism to work anywhere

X-Files Season 11 Episode 7. Make sure you always tip your machine.

See: Grassroots Motorsports/Off-Topic Discussion: Rise of the machines?

In reply to Toebra :

8 years waiting tables.  My point is not how it IS, it's how it WAS.  Tipping in a modern world is a vestige of a tradition that has become so perverted to cover for the fact that we just don't want to pay people a fair wage for their labor.  Why have we randomly chosen wait staff as a tipping industry and not auto repair?  Why not Electricians?  Why not any of the thousands of other professions in which doing a top-notch job should earn you better pay?  Why is it that a good roofer or plumber gets paid better because the business is more successful because of their presence, but waiters and bartenders get paid more because the business pays them less and the consumer pays them more?

The person who works at the local grocery store gets paid by the store.  If they do exceptional work, they're paid more.  Same goes for the DMV agent when I stop in for a title, the Amazon employee who answers my email, and the person who answers my call at the power company.  They all have opportunities to shine and provide great service, but I don't tip them.

Minimum wage hasn't gone up for nearly 15 years, but inflation has.  We're woefully behind.  The minimum wage over the last 70 years has increased WITH inflation based on what the market needs and supports.  Sometimes it doesn't move for a decade or so because the economy doesn't change much, but the last 20 years has been unprecedented in economy growth and change, but the minimum wage has not changed.  Back in the 70s when minimum was $1.75, the economy was such that the 1.75 was equivalent to almost $13 today.  Somehow the government has most people lulled into forgetting about how minimum wage is a key component of economy.  

I just don't tip any more. Why are we tipping people to do there job?  Like tipping the person that sits at the register at the 24 hour store while we get everything and bring it to them to take our money.  
 

I really think it is because people are stupid. I can not fault the shop owners as they have found another revenue stream. If people are dump enough to hand over there $$ they are going to take it.  
 

I do tip at nice restaurants where the staff does there job. Tipping is not based on the quality of food.  A good server is always watching but hardly noticed. Drinks get refilled magically. The food shows up on time as the previous course is finished.  A good server makes a meal. If the food is good that is a bonus.  

Another restaurant trend that adds needless complexity to the tipping process is the fact that you often have a hostess that seats you, a busser that brings water, a waiter/waitress that takes your order, a server who actually brings you your food, a manager who drops by to ask if you need anything else at the table, a different busser who clears your plate... and then, finally, you try to remember what your waitress looks like so that you can ask her to bring the check. 

Adding more people does not improve my dining experience. In fact, it limits the waiter's opportunity to shine and provide me with noticeably good, or outstanding, service.

I find it difficult to quantify the quality of service in a place like this.

We're not necessarily getting great service, just more of it.

I worked in the food service industry for years during high school and college as a second job. I was a delivery driver/dishwasher/server for a local Italian restaurant. I was paid a decent hourly wage, got to keep my tips, and would split my tips with the dishwasher because they typically helped out with closing duties. Those tips paid for my hobbies and gas costs for delivering food, so I always feel for people working in food service. 

I do have a few gripes with todays world however. My understanding has always been that gratuity was for people working as servers, due to their service, and that you would tip commensurate to the service you received. Why am I now being asked to tip people who aren't providing a service, rather they are doing their hourly job they were hired into? It falls back to the owners of these establishments.

The other thing is UberEats and the other companies like it, asking for a tip prior to the food ever being delivered. Like if I don't tip well, this guy is going to take his sweet ass time bringing my food to my home and god knows what else. 

I guess the bottom line is: I want to tip based on the service I receive. I don't want to tip prior to, with the hopes that I'll receive good service based on the tip. 

I was a server/waiter for 2 or 3 years in high school. I made pretty dang good money for a kid with no responsibilities.

As others have mentioned the expectation was you EARNED a tip. It seems to have changed, now waiters (and everyone else for that matter) is ENTITLED to a tip. I called in an order the other day and I pulled up to pick it up and the sign said stay in your car and call, so I called and they said they dont do curbside so I had to come in. No problem i got out and headed in, to be greeted with an iPad register and i had to search for the no tip button because I wasnt served. The lady behind the counter get upset because I didnt tip. She didnt do anything a cashier wouldnt do and I dont tip cashiers.

Im a good tipper to, I tip high for people that deserve it because I used to be a server, but Im not ashamed to not tip someone that didnt serve me or did a terrible job. Its definitley gone too far at this point.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

8 years waiting tables.  My point is not how it IS, it's how it WAS.  Tipping in a modern world is a vestige of a tradition that has become so perverted to cover for the fact that we just don't want to pay people a fair wage for their labor.  Why have we randomly chosen wait staff as a tipping industry and not auto repair?  Why not Electricians?  Why not any of the thousands of other professions in which doing a top-notch job should earn you better pay?  Why is it that a good roofer or plumber gets paid better because the business is more successful because of their presence, but waiters and bartenders get paid more because the business pays them less and the consumer pays them more?

So how did you do in your 8 years of waiting tables? I assume you made significantly more than minimum wage after tips? You yourself gave an example of how much you made in a good night of tending bar- so isn't this what Toyman has been saying- looking for a solution for a problem that doesn't exist? The answer for why servers are tipped Vs most other professions is easy. Service is subjective. Bringing food to a table is clearly defined. Enhancing the experience of the guest is subjective. People don't care as much about the experience of getting a pipe fixed  or having a breaker replaced. They don't want anything to leak, catch on fire, and their utilities to work. It's not as subjective. And since those are skilled jobs, being top notch does affect their pay. Serving is odd in that it doesn't fit neatly into skilled vs. unskilled labor. Bringing a plate to a table is unskilled. Delivering great service is a skill, not everyone can do it. Those that do it better do get paid more- higher tips. Those that can't deliver good service shouldn't be servers. They shouldn't get tipped. Tipping hasn't changed, tipping after the meal has been the norm for decades. It's tipping for poor service that is new. 

The person who works at the local grocery store gets paid by the store.  If they do exceptional work, they're paid more.  Same goes for the DMV agent when I stop in for a title, the Amazon employee who answers my email, and the person who answers my call at the power company.  They all have opportunities to shine and provide great service, but I don't tip them.

That's because while they are expected to give good service as part of their job, but it's not a driving factor as to why customers use their services. Your grocery example is ironic. The public has voted with their dollars that they don't need grocery store checkers. Self check to checkers is 10 to 1 in most places now, and that 1 is primarily to check out alcohol. I hated the idea of self checks when they came out- I resisted the idea that I had to do the store's work for them. But it didn't take long to realize that I can do it better than most checkers. I'm faster and bag better. Now I dread when I have to go through the regular line. The other examples don't give you a choice- I can't do those jobs for myself. 

Minimum wage hasn't gone up for nearly 15 years, but inflation has.  We're woefully behind.  The minimum wage over the last 70 years has increased WITH inflation based on what the market needs and supports.  Sometimes it doesn't move for a decade or so because the economy doesn't change much, but the last 20 years has been unprecedented in economy growth and change, but the minimum wage has not changed.  Back in the 70s when minimum was $1.75, the economy was such that the 1.75 was equivalent to almost $13 today.  Somehow the government has most people lulled into forgetting about how minimum wage is a key component of economy.  

Where? In many areas minimum wage has grown faster than inflation. Some areas it hasn't. But just looking at minimum wage is not an accurate way to look at wages. That is a big assumption that just because there is a minimum wage, that's what people actually make. If you look at average wages, you will see that wages have gone up. It's also misleading to take the low minimum wage from your state, and compare it with nationwide inflation numbers. While your state has a low minimum wage, it also has a significantly lower cost of living. If you look at all of the low minimum wage states, you will see that they all have the lowest costs of living. Now, it's not clear which is the cause and which is the effect- do the higher minimum wage states have higher wages because of the cost of living, or is the cost of living higher because of the higher wages? I suspect that both are true. You can explore this for yourself. You live in a low wage/low cost of living state bracketed by high wage/high cost of living states. What does the standard of living look like in your state compared to those? If you think their way of doing it is better, you can vote with your feet. 

If you go to a dispensary in IL there are always tip jars at each register.  They check your ID, then turn around, grab the drugs, take your money, and give you your goods. To me, that is about as undeserving of a tip as it possibly gets. However some people just like to tip, because it makes them feel good to do something nice for someone. 

Racebrick said:

If you go to a dispensary in IL there are always tip jars at each register. 

Can they tip a joint into the jar?  

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Toebra :

It's becoming rare to earn a tip because the service minimum hasn't budged for a long time.  It used to be that a tip was to grease the wheels.  Now it's pretty much expected because of the lower minimum wage.

The whole concept of tipping AFTER good service is a relatively recent development.  You used to slip a bill to the host of a restaurant to get a table faster, or slip a 5-spot to your driver for a fast commute.

I'll tip the valet a couple bucks when they take the car and then the same when getting it back.  Typically its different guys, and I want the guy parking it to be as careful as the one bringing it back. 

Most time I see the car gets parked close by and the wait to get it back is  shorter. 

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

8 years waiting tables.  My point is not how it IS, it's how it WAS.  Tipping in a modern world is a vestige of a tradition that has become so perverted to cover for the fact that we just don't want to pay people a fair wage for their labor.  Why have we randomly chosen wait staff as a tipping industry and not auto repair?  Why not Electricians?  Why not any of the thousands of other professions in which doing a top-notch job should earn you better pay?  Why is it that a good roofer or plumber gets paid better because the business is more successful because of their presence, but waiters and bartenders get paid more because the business pays them less and the consumer pays them more?

So how did you do in your 8 years of waiting tables? I assume you made significantly more than minimum wage after tips? 

Yes, significantly more.  That's not my point.  My point is that it's another means for the skewing of wealth.  The lower income (wait staff and potentially customers) are footing the bill while the owners get away with paying $3/hr.

The person who works at the local grocery store gets paid by the store.  If they do exceptional work, they're paid more.  Same goes for the DMV agent when I stop in for a title, the Amazon employee who answers my email, and the person who answers my call at the power company.  They all have opportunities to shine and provide great service, but I don't tip them.

That's because while they are expected to give good service as part of their job, but it's not a driving factor as to why customers use their services. Your grocery example is ironic. The public has voted with their dollars that they don't need grocery store checkers. Self check to checkers is 10 to 1 in most places now, and that 1 is primarily to check out alcohol. I hated the idea of self checks when they came out- I resisted the idea that I had to do the store's work for them. But it didn't take long to realize that I can do it better than most checkers. I'm faster and bag better. Now I dread when I have to go through the regular line. The other examples don't give you a choice- I can't do those jobs for myself. 

I think everyone is expected to be good at their job, especially in customer service.  I applaud self checkout, personally.  Automation is a key factor in the success of many countries more successful than we.

Minimum wage hasn't gone up for nearly 15 years, but inflation has.  We're woefully behind.  The minimum wage over the last 70 years has increased WITH inflation based on what the market needs and supports.  Sometimes it doesn't move for a decade or so because the economy doesn't change much, but the last 20 years has been unprecedented in economy growth and change, but the minimum wage has not changed.  Back in the 70s when minimum was $1.75, the economy was such that the 1.75 was equivalent to almost $13 today.  Somehow the government has most people lulled into forgetting about how minimum wage is a key component of economy.  

Where? In many areas minimum wage has grown faster than inflation. Some areas it hasn't. But just looking at minimum wage is not an accurate way to look at wages. That is a big assumption that just because there is a minimum wage, that's what people actually make. If you look at average wages, you will see that wages have gone up. It's also misleading to take the low minimum wage from your state, and compare it with nationwide inflation numbers. While your state has a low minimum wage, it also has a significantly lower cost of living. If you look at all of the low minimum wage states, you will see that they all have the lowest costs of living. Now, it's not clear which is the cause and which is the effect- do the higher minimum wage states have higher wages because of the cost of living, or is the cost of living higher because of the higher wages? I suspect that both are true. You can explore this for yourself. You live in a low wage/low cost of living state bracketed by high wage/high cost of living states. What does the standard of living look like in your state compared to those? If you think their way of doing it is better, you can vote with your feet. 

The Federal minimum wage hasn't changed since 2009.  Some areas have adopted a higher minimum (and are having good success with it for the most part), but most of the population still exists at the federal minimum.  I promise that if I started waiting tables or tending bar here in PA, I'd be making $3-5/hr tops.  Yes, some have opted to start paying more to attract labor, but only because the labor force is fed up and refuses to work for pennies.  Basically, we are behind because the federal govt hasn't kept up, so some liberal areas have taken legislation into their own hands, but it's incredibly rare that a corporation or company will just up their wages if they don't have to.  Wages are going up DESPITE employers' best efforts to keep them down, and the government has dropped the ball.  The labor force is just ready to take their ball and go home, but it is my opinion that the Federal minimum should be raised significantly to account for the millions of people still stuck at minimum.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

So you didn't make minimum wage. Significantly more. Where is this problem that we are trying to solve again? 
 

So we aren't talking about traditionally tipped servers and bar tenders anymore, correct? You want regular waged employees to make more money. But rather than rely on the individual worker to negotiate for their own pay, you want the customers to start tipping them? If you feel that strongly, I recommend that you and others that share your sentiment tip everyone 40%, which should balance things out with those of us that don't see the need to tip people for just doing their jobs. Problem solved. 

Minimum wage is just an arbitrary limit to the bottom of the scale. Change it all you want, the scale will just adjust. If you are at the bottom of the skill/effort scale, minimum wage could be raised to $50 an hour, and you would just be back at the bottom again, complaining about how a hamburger costs $25. Or your job will be eliminated all together. 

I don't know where you are getting your information. There are lots of "minimum wage employers" that pay above the minimum. The do so to get the best workers. They don't need a government mandate, it's simple supply and demand. Show me the people you are talking about that are "stuck" at minimum.   That is the entry point for some, and for most people, it's very brief. Usually a high school or college kid. I ran restaurants for over 10 years. I won awards for my low turnover- anything below 130% was considered outstanding. That meant if I needed 30 people to run it, I had to hire 39 throughout the year. Many places have turnover many times higher than that. No one is stuck. They didn't leave to go become homeless. They went on to better paying jobs, and I was happy for them even though I was sad to lose them. How many successful people here started their working careers at a minimum wage job. Raises hand. 

Those people who are leaving the workforce because they "refuse to work for pennies" is nothing new. People did that even back in your good old days when minimum wage was relatively higher. The results were as expected. I don't know a single one of them that became successful. I know an large number of those that joined the workforce at minimum wage that did. Once again- if you think you are worth $X per hour, but no one will hire you for that- you aren't worth it. 

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

So you didn't make minimum wage. Significantly more. Where is this problem that we are trying to solve again? 

As I have said (three times now) it's WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM.  It comes from me and you instead of the employer.  Employers are getting away with paying less at your expense because the government lets them get away with it by not imposing a fair wage.

I totally respect your opinion and it's obvious we're not going to agree, but thanks for the fun discussion.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

So, really what you seem to be saying is that the employers just aren't seeing the revenue because much of the labor cost is going direct from customer to server.

Which is actually super awesome, because then the employer doesn't have to pay revenue income tax on money that is going right back out the door as employee paychecks... which are going to get taxed anyway.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

As I have said (three times now) it's WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM.  It comes from me and you instead of the employer.  Employers are getting away with paying less at your expense because the government lets them get away with it by not imposing a fair wage.

I totally respect your opinion and it's obvious we're not going to agree, but thanks for the fun discussion.

But it all comes from the customer, that's where the money to operate the business comes from. The customer pays by tips or higher prices. Restaurants don't make much- 4% net is considered solid in that business. If you are concerned about the governments role- they take almost 10% of the gross in my area, not counting payroll and income taxes. They make way more off a hamburger than the business does. And they already commit a large amount of that money to assistance programs for low wage workers. That's a whole different tangent, but my point it we already take more money and give it to low wage workers that you are not accounting for. And the customers are paying for that too. You are also missing that there is more than one kind of restaurant. They have different price levels, and are able to pay their employees accordingly. The cook at Morton's makes more than the one at Sizzler. Morton's costs a bit more. We could use the Moron's example and pay employees high wages and charge high prices. And most businesses would close, because there are not enough customers willing to pay for a $100 meal. 
 

You said that the "the government lets them get away with it by not imposing a fair wage." According to who? You? How do you know that they didn't come to their number by extensive research and it is the correct number? Yea, I doubt it too, but what is to say the number you have in mind is correct? Minimum wage is $15 where I live. Is that enough? They are still asking for tips for non servers here, shouldn't that have gone away? At what number does that go away for you? 

Here is a good article explaining the unintended consequences of too high a minimum wage. It also does a good job of giving you the stats on how many and who is making minimum wage. It's less than you think and the vast majority are young without families.

Minimum wage

I understand where your heart is, but your opinion, while well meaning, will not have the results that you intend. That's not my opinion, that is fact. Instead of helping others by demanding others do something, I have helped hundreds of low wage workers directly. They went on to better paying job- like most people do. Had your proposed higher wages been in effect, I would not have been able to hire many of them, and they would have missed the opportunity.
 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Toebra :

....The whole concept of tipping AFTER good service is a relatively recent development.  You used to slip a bill to the host of a restaurant to get a table faster, or slip a 5-spot to your driver for a fast commute.

I don't disagree with you, but I think that is more of a bribe then a tip.