What do you do with a toxic friend?

TL;DR: I have a friend who is becoming a real pain in the parts.  We have all heard someone describe a person by saying he would give you the shirt off his back and thought to ourselves that said person is/was a bitter, insecure, volatile jackass with a heart full of hatred.  I am afraid that describes my friend.

The friend: At one time, a genuinely solid human being; today, a genuine shiny happy person.  At least he would be a shiny happy person if he was the least bit happy, but he seems bound and determined to be miserable.  He's made being caustic and abrasive the defining characteristics of his personality, and is doing everything he can to make sure he stays that way. 

The background: We grew up together in a little bitty timber town a long ways from nowhere.  Went to school together from at least kindergarten through high school.  Our dads worked together.  We were really good friends all through our childhood and our teen years.  He was an only child, and as happened a lot in the 80s, his parents split up somewhere around middle school.  We rode bicycles and dirt bikes together, built plastic models together, pined over girls together, all that stuff.   I stayed close to home for about ten years, then finally left the area about 20 years ago.  Through a series of rash, unwise decisions (the only kind he makes) he never strayed far from the little bitty timber town we grew up in, started a family with a deeply unpleasant woman, split up, married someone else, split up, sort of made himself a punching bag whenever the opportunity arose.  His kids are now both in college, and the little bitty timber town hasn't been a timber town for about 35 years; what remains of the economy is largely supported by the weed industry, both legal and not.  We lost touch for a decade or so and I reestablished contact a couple of years back.

The current situation: In those couple of years, he's gone from driving truck to driving truck to driving truck to terminally unemployed.  Being too proud to take any flak (real or imagined) from anybody (real or imagined), my friend couldn't manage to keep a counter job at the FLAPS.  In his eyes, the town has gone to hell, everyone in authority is crooked, and everything is somebody else's fault.  He believes the whole world is in ruins and society - feel free to include buzzwords like "woke" here - is out to get people like him.  Humility is not part of his vocabulary, but racial epithets and bigoted slang of the casual "aw, c'mon, you know what I mean" variety are.

Examples: The other day he tried to coerce me into a road trip to a hot rod shindig in another state, the attendance of which would involve a minimum of six days' driving to and from, which isn't the kind of thing I can just jump on; when I declined, I was berated.  Today I sent him a YT video of some Brits unearthing a C4 ZR1; he responded with a tirade about "that f######'s accent" and inelegantly dovetailed that into a rant about how a guy used to be able to dump oil and antifreeze in the woods and not worry about getting caught.

I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, knowing that he has the heart of a poet and the impulse control of a rattlesnake on meth.  That lack of impulse control has ruined most of the relationships that mattered to him.  While that happened, he's watched the idyllic town we grew up in, the place he loved, slowly decay before his eyes.  His friends have left and his kids  probably aren't coming back.  It's not great.

He's a very old friend and a very determined E36 M3head.  I don't know what to do with this guy.

I move on. I've done the same with family members who sound like your "friend." You're not going to change him, nor should you try. And don't lose sleep over it. I'm sure you have friends who would give you the shirt off their back, but are not asshats.

Sounds like this is not really a friend anymore. People grow apart, block and move on

Maybe challenge him on his E36 M3ty behavior, best case scenario he undertakes some self-examination and stops being a toxic E36 M3head, worst case he stops talking to you which doesn't sound like such a bad outcome either.

If you don't enjoy being around him anymore then don't be around him.  Life's too short.

DarkMonohue said:

 We have all heard someone describe a person by saying he would give you the shirt off his back and thought to ourselves that said person is/was a bitter, insecure, volatile jackass with a heart full of hatred. 

With more than one "he" in the run on sentience, I'm not able to tell what he is what, so do not understand. This part. 
Do understand the reason your friend is no longer a friend - despite you wanting him to be. 
To only thing you can do to change a person , is to lead a good example. Sounds to me, that ain't gonna do it here. 
Since y'all drifted apart, and you initiated contact, just let it drift back apart, would be healthiest for you. And probably him, at this point. 

In the young years you were both in the same geography sharing same/similar activities and experiences.  Since then, you have not shared the same geography, activities and experiences.  

Neither of you are the same as you were in the young years.  

If he can drive truck as in a real CDL, he should be employable at a moments notice.  Something is amiss there.  Loose license?  DUI?  

From the anger statements and "old days" comments it sounds to me that he is a man that realizes the world has continued forward and he has not.  That realization will make you a mad and unhappy individual.  When I say "realized" my guess is its happened but he can't really put his finger on what is different with the world...it's just all different.  And, different doesn't mean better, to him.  

I have a good friend of 20 years who I've had to cut completely. Refuses to crawl out of the bottle, can't hold a job, blames everyone else. We've been through these cycles for the last 15 years. Last year I decided it's been enough, and simply stopped answering calls or texts. He still tries from time to time, and it still sucks. 
 

If you haven't, it may be good to have the hard conversation. Or it might not be good. Depends on the situation and the relationship. "Listen, Joe, you're getting to be hard to be around. Find a way to fix it, or I've got to cut ties."

 Lots of good input here.  Let me try to respond as and where I can.

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

I move on. I've done the same with family members who sound like your "friend." You're not going to change him, nor should you try. And don't lose sleep over it. I'm sure you have friends who would give you the shirt off their back, but are not asshats.

Fair point.  I haven't tried to change him, but have tried to guide him toward reality, so to speak.  And he has admitted to getting twisted up about things that didn't seem quite so dramatic once we talked about them.

I don't make friends easily - I get along with most everybody, but don't socialize much outside of work - and I do care about the guy, so I really don't want to just axe him.

Patrick said:

Sounds like this is not really a friend anymore. People grow apart, block and move on

I would counter that he is a friend, but either doesn't understand what an abrasive asshat he has become, or believes that he has a right to be an abrasive asshat and that "true friends" should stick by him despite that.  And I'm fully aware of how juvenile that sounds.  His thought process and values system are downright prepubescent at times.

He still lives in our hometown.  So does his dad and both of my parents.  It's a very small town.  It is in my best interest to handle this with whatever grace I can muster to avoid making any messes that I can't clean up.

GameboyRMH said:

Maybe challenge him on his E36 M3ty behavior, best case scenario he undertakes some self-examination and stops being a toxic E36 M3head, worst case he stops talking to you which doesn't sound like such a bad outcome either.

 Been there and done that, and probably will have to again.  Results have been mixed at best.  At one point he became so hostile that I phoned him and he went off on me a little, backpedalled a little, and eventually calm down long enough to listen to my perspective on whatever was happening at the time.

Self-examination seems to lead to self-pity, and almost invariably the notion that his parents or baby mama or cousin or mailman or whoever wronged him in some fashion.  It devolves from there.  I've heard about every grievance from the heartbreak of halitosis to the size of his father's anatomy.  The man has demons.

triumph7 said:

If you don't enjoy being around him anymore then don't be around him.  Life's too short.

I'm not actually around him, and that may be part of the problem.  He's 300 miles away.  Because I can't pop in and drink beer, I am less of a friend to him.  Anyway, most of our conversations take place through text messages, which is almost certainly a contributing factor.

03Panther said:

DarkMonohue said:

 We have all heard someone describe a person by saying he would give you the shirt off his back and thought to ourselves that said person is/was a bitter, insecure, volatile jackass with a heart full of hatred. 

With more than one "he" in the run on sentience, I'm not able to tell what he is what, so do not understand. This part. 
Do understand the reason your friend is no longer a friend - despite you wanting him to be. 
To only thing you can do to change a person , is to lead a good example. Sounds to me, that ain't gonna do it here. 
Since y'all drifted apart, and you initiated contact, just let it drift back apart, would be healthiest for you. And probably him, at this point. 

 Rephrased: we have all heard someone say, "Bob would give you the shirt of his back," and thought to ourselves that Bob is/was a bitter, insecure, volatile jackass with a heart full of hatred.

I have tried sharing some positive and encouraging thoughts and examples.  They are sometimes welcome and sometimes perceived as sanctimonious or boastful,  or as further evidence that his lot in life is to play the loser.

Part of why we drifted apart was that I left the area and he stayed.  But I have had to stop responding for a while until he got himself together.  A mutual friend back home apparently had to cut off communications for about six months in the past for similar reasons.  Pretty frustrating.

John Welsh said:

In the young years you were both in the same geography sharing same/similar activities and experiences.  Since then, you have not shared the same geography, activities and experiences.  

Neither of you are the same as you were in the young years.  

 

If he can drive truck as in a real CDL, he should be employable at a moments notice.  Something is amiss there.  Loose license?  DUI?  

 

From the anger statements and "old days" comments it sounds to me that he is a man that realizes the world has continued forward and he has not.  That realization will make you a mad and unhappy individual.  When I say "realized" my guess is its happened but he can't really put his finger on what is different with the world...it's just all different.  And, different doesn't mean better, to him.  

There is a whole lot of truth in your comments.  He's either angry with me or feigning anger because I no longer ride wheelies all over town on a mountain bike and draw cars 17 hours a day.  I wasn't sure how to respond to that then and am still a little baffled by it.

He has a CDL (may require a physical) but his remoteness of his hometown is a factor.  He lives an hour from the nearest opportunity.  Granted, if he wanted to work, he'd find a way to work, but his location gives him another excuse not to.

Your last paragraph sums things up rather perfectly.  It turns out it's no longer 1989, and he seems to have taken that fact personally.

barefootcyborg5000 said:

I have a good friend of 20 years who I've had to cut completely. Refuses to crawl out of the bottle, can't hold a job, blames everyone else. We've been through these cycles for the last 15 years. Last year I decided it's been enough, and simply stopped answering calls or texts. He still tries from time to time, and it still sucks. 
 

If you haven't, it may be good to have the hard conversation. Or it might not be good. Depends on the situation and the relationship. "Listen, Joe, you're getting to be hard to be around. Find a way to fix it, or I've got to cut ties."

 Yup.  And yup.  Definitely (and admittedly) drinks too much, definitely blames every single thing on every single thing but himself.  We've had a few "come to Jesus" moments, but largely, he seems to prefer playing the martyr.  I've suggested sobering up for a week or four.  But those Bud Lights apparently make a great breakfast.

It may be a good thing that I am 300 miles away.  If I saw him making a fool of himself all over town I might not have the luxury of just ignoring him the way I can from all the way up here.

Limit his access to you. Let him have his pity party alone. I feel his self defeating behavior will fix the problems with either an orange or black suit...

I'm not the least bit surprised that alcohol is part of the picture. I was wondering that from the beginning. 
 

I understand the situation. I had to write off my brother, so I know how hard it can be. 
 

It's a toxic relationship. You're able to assess the situation and how it's affecting you, but you have little to no influence on your friend. Nothing is likely to change, he's the person he wants to be. 

There is a fine line between being there to support someone who did the same for you years ago and enabling destructive behavior.  BTDT, buddies of 20 years both went thru divorces, one screwed his wife financially(also a friend) the other turned into a bitter spiteful person.  I told both of them what I thought of their recent actions, never heard from either since, now 30 years ago.  Technically I never closed a door, just told them how terrible they had become over events and to get help.  So technically the walking away was their choice.  Miss them in my life but not regretting my actions either.

I know a similar person (alcohol not a factor).  Everyone is against him, nothing is the result of his own actions.  Things happen to him, he's just an unwilling participant.

I am fairly patient. I made some small suggestions and tried to alter his perspective in a friendly way.  It never worked.  Eventually he was so toxic that I cut off communication all together.

I have a friend that still talks to him, perhaps because they have been friends longer.  He will call him on the bullE36 M3 more directly and I believe stands a better chance of making an impact.  Perhaps he will be successful (I hope so), but perhaps not.

I have family members like that. I don't talk to em anymore. Pretty simple, really. Unfortunately for you, it's going to be your fault and you're going to fall into whatever category of miscreant he chooses when you do go no-contact, because it's clearly your fault. BUT- that's a him problem, not a you problem.

ETA- is his name Tim? Are you friends with my uncle? 

"Listen man, know how you keep saying everything has gone to hell, and everything sucks?  That includes you, man.  You used to be a happy guy, you used to be kind and generous.  Now a days you're just a dick.

I wish the world.could go back the way it used to as well, but it can't.  Maybe you can though.  And maybe that will help things around you."

Or something like that.

The number of people that admit they need therapy and go is vastly outweighed by the amount that ignore that anything is wrong with them.

It may not be easy to do, but moving on is likely the best answer. Choosing to spend time and effort on people that don't bring anything positive to your life can be exhausting and he's more likely to drag you into being unhappy than you are to raise him up. I had a few people in my life like this in recent years and they made my depression far worse. I'm still struggling to get back to where I was before.  

I don't know what's so hard about cutting those people out of your life. 

Of course I've been trying to convince a good friend for decades now that just because you share parents doesn't mean you have to like each other or interact with each other at all now that the parents are gone, and that lesson won't sink in no matter how many ways it's taught. 

You have no obligation to anyone you don't want to be obligated to. Friends get weird, get rid of them. Family sucks, cut them out. Life is to short to deal with everybody else's horse E36 M3.

“It is better to be alone, than to be in bad company.” – George Washington

You just described a 'friend of mine' quite well.  
I have called him on his behavior, he justifies it and doubles down.
I've challenged his behavior by saying something along the lines of 'you're complaining about this situation every time we talk. You have two choices: 1 - change the situation or 2 - shut up about it.' he does neither. 

He's now a former friend that I hope gets his head screwed on straight one day. Until that day, I value mine and my family's mental and emotional health too much to indulge and endure his behavior. 

DarkMonohue said:

I would counter that he is a friend, but either doesn't understand what an abrasive asshat he has become, or believes that he has a right to be an abrasive asshat and that "true friends" should stick by him despite that.  And I'm fully aware of how juvenile that sounds.

Relationships are two-way streets. If he wants you to be a true friend to him, he needs to be a true friend to you. Being an abrasive asshat is not that. True friends make life more enjoyable for each other. Being an abrasive asshat makes your life less enjoyable.

You need to establish and maintain boundaries that keep your relationship with him healthy and positive for you. Only you can enforce those boundaries. Don't just tell him what you don't want him to do. Tell *yourself* what *you* will do, if he violates those things. E.g. If he goes off on an unnecessarily partisan scree, you will end the conversation; whether that is, "Gotta get off the phone, kids need help...", or walking away, or deleting the e-mail thread.

Figure out what terms you can interact with him that are positive for you. Only do those.

Were I in your shoes, the only question I'd really be asking myself is: Do I tell him what my lines are and what I'm going to do if he crosses them? Or do I keep those to myself? Will it be better to give him more opportunity to change, or to spare his feelings?

I've been through a variation on this with my father who - although not nearly as caustic as your friend - has refused to listen and blamed others when it's been explained to him that *he* is the one causing strife in the family. I used to tell him what boundaries are, but no longer do, because he turns it into an argument instead of an opportunity for reflection.

Sometimes friends just stop being friends.

I am lucky to have a lot of people in a close-knit friend group whose core has been together since grade school. When one of us starts down the wrong path, the rest of the group calls that person out on their BS. Sometimes, it results in self-reflection and a mea culpa; other times, the offender just goes off in their own direction. 

A few years back, one of my longest-tenured friends decided to start being a jerk to one of the others in the group. He's always been an edgelord and an a-hole, but he would make us laugh and was still considered a good friend. I was probably the closest with him, and once he crossed the line with one of us (not me), we had asked him to apologize for what he did. When he defiantly refused, he was voted off the island by ALL of us.

In retrospect, I thought about all the times he personally wronged me, and looking back, it was almost like a sport for him to screw me over, especially in my teen years. Stealing girlfriends was one of his specialties; he was kind of the "Damone" of the group.  When his bad habits caught up to him, he leaned on me for help, and I did help him. But you can only tolerate so much. As adults, none of us in our group have time for that BS anymore. I remember the good times, but it was just time to move on. 

It's ultimately up to you to find that line, and when they cross it, you have to decide what to do. 

It's actually about marriage, but I think this has some relevance here:

A woman marries a man thinking she can change him, and a man marries a woman thinking she'll never change.

Unfortunately, I think you're in this situation.  Your friend has failed to become an adult, or actively avoided it, and is blaming the changing world around him.  That is going to be very difficult to overcome.  I imagine that deep inside he realizes it is his fault, but cannot admit it to himself (let alone anyone else) to the extent that he is willing to improve.

I can very much appreciate your desire to help him, but as is so often the case, I think this is a situation where you are powerless to help someone who is unwilling to help themselves.  All you can do is limit how much damage he can do to you.

Had to cut my oldest friend out of my life 20 years ago. Friends since kindergarten. He was too self destructive and ended up getting his wish a few years after we stopped talking. I still miss him, but I miss who he was before. His last few years he was a shell of his former self (multiple strokes due to no self care) and just wasn't the same person. I tried to help him for years but finally told myself I wouldn't set myself on fire to keep him warm.

Time to walk away and focus your time elsewhere.

What do you do with a toxic friend? Nothing.

I don't have the time or the fortitude to put up with that kind of stupid crap so I won't do anything with them. 

A brief update. Last night the guy said something to me (again, through text message) that no reasonable or sober person would say to a friend. I didn't respond. Today at lunch I tried to call and got no answer. He immediately called me and we had a frank and pretty productive conversation.

If this was anyone else I'd have broomed him long ago. I made it clear that I understand his situation, but that he can't talk to me or anybody else like that if he wants any of us to stick around. He understood completely.

I'll have more later when I have time to type it out. For now, there is at least a little hope. He's realizing that what happens next, in all aspects of his life, is up to him.