Whats with the shootings?

In reply to PHeller:

The point is the FBI was operating illegally. Something that you were inferring would not happen. The only reason it even got stopped was because people found them and made that PUBLIC on the internet. Why would anyone have used a gun in that case? You are starting to sound like one of those anti gunners that think people with guns will try and use them to fix everything. That is not the case they are a last resort to protect our lives and those around us, most of us are intelligent enough to know when it is appropriate to use them.

As for the confiscation the looting and riots were simply an excuse to remove the firearms from the population. They did not even begin to return them until the event hit the national stage and the NRA started to make a stink about it. Even then they were requiring background checks for weapons that were already purchased and in some cases still not returning guns that they stole.

Ok guys calm down. We've kept it pretty calm so far.

I have 47 acres here in Texas. I like to go out with my friends visiting from the city and shoot the everliving E36 M3 out of things. Usually old metal freon tanks or whatever. We'll go through several hundred rounds of all different types of ammo depending on who's here and what weapons we feel like breaking out. Most likely, if someone was out there when we're shooting, they'd think we are absolutely insane. The way we talk, the way we act, etc. would put us on the "goofy" list for sure. But one thing remains constant... Firearm safety. PHeller, you said it perfectly before, a firearms safety course and hunters education course needs to be taken. It is MANDATORY in Texas to pass a hunters ed course before you get a hunting license. It should be mandatory to take a firearms safety course before purchasing a firearm. I would have no problem with it. It really needs to be taught at a high school level, junior or senior level. Around here they teach the hunters ed class in school, it focuses a LOT on firearm safety, but a dedicated class is a great idea.

PHeller wrote:

rebelgtp wrote: Oh also hasn't there been some issues of the FBI illegally placing GPS tracking devices on cars? In fact I believe they had to remove THOUSANDS of them after the Supreme Court ruling...

You just proved my point. Guns didn't solve that problem, the courts did. You know why people were confiscating guns in New Orleans? Because the police were worried that they would not be able to quell the looting, blockading of roadways, and other lawlessness that was rampant across the city. Did they make some mistakes? Definitely. But they were worried about old ladies having their guns stolen and used against her than they were about old ladies becoming enemies of the state.

Here is the issue with what happened after Katrina......they did what they thought they needed to. They did not do anything close to what is legal and I hope they were successfully sued to hell and back. Courts are subjective to their interpretation of the law, just as yourself, myself, and anyone else is. Most of the time they get it right, but sometimes they make it worse.

So many points, so little time ...

PHeller wrote: Ok, so you can have an AR based hunting rifle.

Mighty generous of you.

Exactly how does "an AR based hunting rifle" differ from, say a regular AR? My nephew has been competing successfully at the National Matches for a couple of years with an AR that looks a whole heck of a lot like an M16A2. If he wanted to hunt with that rifle, there'd be fresh meat on the table, guaranteed. Yes, it would also be useful in the context of the militia. A very versatile tool, I'd say. The modern Brown Bess, Kentucky rifle, or Winchester saddlegun..

PHeller wrote: A red flag should be raised when your not part of a gun club, have not taken a hunters safety course.........and I think that would raise many red flags about potential criminals, terrorists, and others baddies.

It would raise many red flags for people who are doing nothing more than living their life. It would tie up police investigating them instead of looking at the truly bad folks. The investigation could quickly become harassment and stigmatization. "Mr. Employer, do you know why your oddball employee would want a bunch of weapons? Oh, no reason, we're just investigating."

Ok, if there's no problem with the government data mining all sorts of purchases, tracking movement and associations, and then questioning motives for simply exercising basic rights, how long will it take to collate all that data into anything meaningful, coordinate with all the alphabet agencies, and act? What shape would that action take? In the mean time, the real bad guys are either lost in the mountain of data or are off the books and therefore under the radar - or they act before anyone puts the pieces together.

More:

ID to drive - Only on government roads. Apparently driving without ID is pretty common, with little punishment for violators.

ID to vote - Not if the current Attorney General has anything to say about it.

ID to buy alcohol - I haven't shown any in a long time.

ID to purchase medication - Since when? I've picked up some powerful prescriptions without showing anything

I appreciate the desire to do something, but that something has to address the actual dangers and, in a free society, leave the rest of us alone.

It's too easy to look at a perp, notice whatever about him differs from what you like, or do, or are, and focus on that as something to blame, restrict, or ban. It usually doesn't get us anywhere..

In reply to Conquest351:

In many areas that don't have that restriction, Cub, Boy, and Eagle scouts covered those bases.

Personally, I think "Common Sense" should be a very important required class to graduate high school.

Edit, and slantvaliant hit that one out of the ballpark.

In reply to slantvaliant:

Some excellent points. I had actually forgotten that I have picked up prescriptions for powerful pain killers that weren't even for me and I did not have to show ID. I gave the persons last 4 of their social and they gave me the drugs.

Sorry about losing my head there for a moment folks. As mentioned lets keep this civil.

ter·ror·ism   /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show Spelled[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. 3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Any one of these three definitions identify terrorism

PHeller wrote: Domestic terrorism is usually justified by those committing it against "tyrannical government" and guess what?

And you realize that the FBI has been using as they describe it "Advanced Science and Methods" since its birth......most of which were done illegally and without warrant. (Wire tapping, unlawful searches & seizure, unlawful detention, bodily harm during interrogation, etc) When they do get caught, they skirt their way around it and the media shuts up about it......just like what happened with the ATF supplying mexican cartels.

Honestly, if that doesn't fit the bill of domestic terrorism, not much does in my book. They manipulate or force you to agree with them.

I'm gonna start my own gun store.

Low low prices. Lots of questions. I'll go out of business.

So who's going to decide if a person is fit to use or own a gun? The elected gun club president - maybe a committee - are they going to review my permanent record? How about the local psychologist? Local or federal LEOs? My neighbors? Are you saying if someone fits the wrong profile, they are denied even though they have a squeaky clean record? Don't have enough friends - denied. Spend "too much" time alone, like 1st person shooter games, sorry, no guns for you.

For a few hundred bucks you can get a crate of mosin-nagant rifles - likely to increase in value in the future - but if I buy them, the SWAT team is going to be coming down my chimney? There are even genetic mutations that some murderers have - it's only a correlation, not a predictor - are we going to force some testing or deny someone their rights based on a possibility? If I don't like my neighbor who happens to own guns - can I turn him in for reconsideration? Or I think my neighbor's gun might get stolen some day, so we better take it away from him - you know, for the kids.

Of your list - only voting is a right - and a right for people who have reached the age of majority - laws vary from state to state - no ID required in my state.

Times of crisis are when you should be most vigilant about your rights - because those are the times people are easily distracted or tempted to trade some sense of security for the rights laid out in the constitution. There are plenty of examples of this happening in our history. And the part about greedy folks with their hand in your... wow, starting to rant. Where did that come from. Better put me on the list to be safe.

OldTin, the mention of the greedy folks is to say I've got more things to worry about than the government watching me or restricting my access to guns. More things are impacting my happiness than my gun ownership. I've got barely enough money for student loans, groceries, and healthy toys like bicycles, much less guns, and I'd need a whole lot of extra money to go spending it on a gun.

Maybe your rich and want to spend all of your money on guns, and that's why your worried about such restrictions. I guess thats your prerogative.

Maybe time to put me in the whack job crowd, but I see business owners buying time with elected officials (fundraising dinners and events). I've spent enough time in business to know that you don't throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at something and not expect a return on it. So the greed part is related.

What I'm concerned about is the ease that my government officials and fellow citizens will voluntarily forfeit rights to privacy or the ability to defend their person and property.

PHeller wrote: OldTin, the mention of the greedy folks is to say I've got more things to worry about than the government watching me or restricting my access to guns. More things are impacting my happiness than my gun ownership. I've got barely enough money for student loans, groceries, and healthy toys like bicycles, much less guns, and I'd need a whole lot of extra money to go spending it on a gun. Maybe your rich and want to spend all of your money on guns, and that's why your worried about such restrictions. I guess thats your prerogative.

There is a far more pressing issue with this quote right here.

Some people have the means and budgeting abilities to purchase what they want, when they want it, and already paid the bills. No need to be envious, just buy what you think you need to get by.

Also, you claim you are underpaid, underpaid by what estimate? Right now it is an employers market, thus it drives the pay level down. I remember when I was in school(before I left due to not wanting to waste money deciding what I wanted to do) the school promised "Everyone who graduates with this degree will make between $85k-100k a year" For a state school to tell students that is completely retarded. They don't know, and they sure didn't see this collapse coming either. Most friends from that engineering program now have 50-60k in student loan debt, and work in the field of their study for under 35k/year. I already paid my student debt off and have worked to get my associates with no debt. I get paid around 25k/year in a job thats nothing close to my field of study. My choice, but no debt allows me to purchase things of my choosing. Respect that decision, and if you don't like the decision, don't attempt to push your ideals onto the rest of us.

As that is precisely what has royally berkeleyed this country up.

yamaha wrote: Most friends from that engineering program now have 50-60k in student loan debt, and work in the field of their study for under 35k/year.

E36 M3. Who do they work for cause they are getting underpaid. Of my friend's and I who graduated within the last two years in engineering, the lowest paid of us is getting $52k/ year.

PHeller wrote: OldTin, the mention of the greedy folks is to say I've got more things to worry about than the government watching me or restricting my access to guns. More things are impacting my happiness than my gun ownership. I've got barely enough money for student loans, groceries, and healthy toys like bicycles, much less guns, and I'd need a whole lot of extra money to go spending it on a gun. Maybe your rich and want to spend all of your money on guns, and that's why your worried about such restrictions. I guess thats your prerogative.

So because you can't afford them no one else should have them? Crap I guess a bunch of guys with exotic sports cars need to turn those in. Wait...everyone on this forum needs to turn in their cars because there are those that can't afford them. What gives you or anyone else the right to dictate the hobbys of another and how they spend their money? That is like me saying you can't spend money on things like a bicycle because there are all those roving groups of bicyclists that assault pedestrians and automobile drivers.

Also firearms can be an extremely healthy hobby considering the conditioning that is required for many of the shooting sports. For hunting you need to be able to hike all day long and haul back a heavy load of meat from your kill, normally over rough terrain. For many of the modern shooting sports there is quite a bit of movement required and some require negotiating obstacles. Even then a certain amount of physical conditioning is required to steady shots in many of the classic shooting positions that competition requires.

You seem to be attacking firearms on this delusion that all gun owners are either angry brain dead pot bellied hicks or potential terrorists. I know this is the way the media generally portrays us. Sure some do fit that bill however the vast majority of gun owners are law-abiding people that would never do any of the things that the few nut jobs are going to do guns or not. Why attack and punish the majority of a group for something that a minority will do? Why not just for one second assume that the vast majority of legal firearms owners are responsible adults that do have a brain in their head and common sense. If you look at the world this way it is a much better place. This is a far better outlook than thinking that everyone is just a half second away from cracking and going on a murderous rampage.

93EXCivic wrote:

yamaha wrote: Most friends from that engineering program now have 50-60k in student loan debt, and work in the field of their study for under 35k/year.

E36 M3. Who do they work for cause they are getting underpaid. Of my friend's and I who graduated within the last two years in engineering, the lowest paid of us is getting $52k/ year.

Its manufacturing engineering tech(MET).........a bit different than straight up ME, EE, or CE....

yamaha wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

yamaha wrote: Most friends from that engineering program now have 50-60k in student loan debt, and work in the field of their study for under 35k/year.

E36 M3. Who do they work for cause they are getting underpaid. Of my friend's and I who graduated within the last two years in engineering, the lowest paid of us is getting $52k/ year.

Its manufacturing engineering tech(MET).........a bit different than straight up ME, EE, or CE....

Oh ok. That makes sense.

We've kept it pretty calm so far.

Yeah, I'm out.

poopshovel wrote:

We've kept it pretty calm so far.

Yeah, I'm out.

You're just lurking.

rebelgtp wrote: This is a far better outlook than thinking that everyone is just a half second away from cracking and going on a murderous rampage.

'murderous rampage' was my activation sequence. Or was it my safe word. Damn. I hate when my assassin training gets crossed up with my S&M hobby.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Don't you just hate it when that happens?

By the way I cannot see your name and not see

mguar wrote: In reply to rebelgtp: OK I'll state up front that I like some guns and don't care for others.. (now let's see how fast someone accuses me of being anti gun?) The fundamental flaw of guns is freedom.. Just like you have the freedom to own a gun I also have the freedom to live a life free of fear of your freedoms.. Once a gun fires a bullet out of your space and into mine you have violated my freedom.. Most gun owners are decent responsible people..but some can be careless and have their guns stolen which adds to the guns in the hands of criminals.. So what about repercussions if your gun is stolen and used in a crime? Does that mean the original careless gun owner is free of responsibility in that crime? How about the concept of contributory negligence? Finally, how can we reduce gun deaths? (while allowing gun freedoms?)

Only way one of my bullets would "violate" your space is if you are posing an immediate threat to myself or others. Don't pose a threat then you have nothing to worry about.

There are laws in place in regards to repercussions if your firearm is stolen in many states if you have been carelessly storing it.

As already mentioned teach people to be responsible is a huge factor. If people were taught to respect firearms as a tool (which it is) rather than to fear it like so many are pushing for then there would be a greater understanding. We would have fewer accidental deaths by kids AND adults. Also we just might have less people trying to restrict the rights of firearms owners and more people will be encouraged to purchase them. Currently many people do not purchase a firearm because they feel they maybe demonized by anyone that finds out. As the number of legal firearms owners increase you will generally find a drop in violent crime as the criminals are put off by the thought they might come up against someone that can fight back.

I lived in a small town with no law enforcement presence at all and virtually everyone had and carried firearms. Guess what? There was almost no crime. No homes were broken into the entire time I lived there. There were no murders, no accidental shootings, no hold ups and none of the other issues you normally see in a modern "civilized" society.

PHeller wrote: You know why people were confiscating guns in New Orleans? Because the police were worried that they would not be able to quell the looting, blockading of roadways, and other lawlessness that was rampant across the city. Did they make some mistakes? Definitely. But they were worried about old ladies having their guns stolen and used against her than they were about old ladies becoming enemies of the state.

You're willing to justify violation of the 2nd and 4th amendments as long as the police think they have a good reason? Because that's what you just said, whether you meant to or not.

Edit to add: Pretty sure you also just okayed violating the due process clauses of the 5th and 14th amendments, too.

In reply to Will:

Im beginning to think that is exactly what he is saying, while expecting to exercise his first amendment rights.....pretty sad when you think about it.

In reply to mguar:

Really... that's just a psychotic rant. There's something that many (likely most) firearms owners and carriers practice. It's called "Situational Awareness." Armed or not, I like to keep that on. It's saved my ass many many many many many times from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Peter Parker called it his Spidey Sense. It's basically paying attention to your surroundings, watching people and their habits and actions. Does it work 100% of the time? Nothing does. Does it help more often then not? Well, I'm still here.

It's like driving a race car on track. Are you head down, looking only at the end of your hood? Or are you heads up, looking ahead, reading the traffic? Same with being in public.

If you're that scared to be in public,well I don't know what to tell you except maybe seek therapy.

Bobzilla wrote: In reply to mguar: Really... that's just a psychotic rant. There's something that many (likely most) firearms owners and carriers practice. It's called "Situational Awareness." Armed or not, I like to keep that on. It's saved my ass many many many many many times from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Peter Parker called it his Spidey Sense. It's basically paying attention to your surroundings, watching people and their habits and actions. Does it work 100% of the time? Nothing does. Does it help more often then not? Well, I'm still here. It's like driving a race car on track. Are you head down, looking only at the end of your hood? Or are you heads up, looking ahead, reading the traffic? Same with being in public. If you're that scared to be in public,well I don't know what to tell you except maybe seek therapy.

Maybe you have an amazing sixth sense that protects you but what about old ladies and little kids? I don't want to walk around like I am potentially entering a lethal situation at any moment. I like to lollygag and ponder stuff like V8 944s and whatnot while I go about my daily business.