Where are all the younger folks?

In reply to Peabody :

Depending on the content of the application and/or resume, I suspect they view his application as someone looking the able to pay the bills between tech gigs and expect him to leave once he lands another job in the tech field. 

I know when I review resumes for someone applying for a position that's a couple steps below their previous role, I question their motives and staying power. Hiring and training is expensive, and hiring a short timer for a full time permanent role is going to leave you short handed again, and possibly in a worse position than you are now. 
 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That's fair. You're right- that is (in part) an answer to the question of  "Where is everybody?".

What a depressing thread.  

In reply to KyAllroad :

I thought it was about kids in the car scene.

I think cultural differences are playing a part in the workforce too. 

A lot of immigrants could care less about vacation. In their mind, they have had plenty of time sitting around in beautiful places doing nothing. They want to work. 

But generational American millennial kids? They've got a completely different ideal. Many young people I meet, even as old as I am (40), wish they could travel more, or had traveled more during college. They lust for remote jobs that are mythical high paying gig work. Even in my relatively conservative industry filled with lots of country boys, there is a distinct interest in a comfortable job that one is naturally good at. Applying for an internally posted positions, interviewing, then losing that opportunity to someone else who eventually shows themselves to not be great at it, creates a lot of bitterness as well. We've lost talented people because they just didn't get their time to shine. That's a product of more consolidation of businesses and higher efficiency equal less room to grow, or more importantly, change up your daily tasks. 

I think that plays into it as well, often, rising through the ranks is risky. I know me personally, I'm good at my job and many other positions for which I think I could do just fine working don't pay that much more than what I currently make, but come with some amount of risk. Talking with other millennials, when your boss's boss comes to you and says "apply for this open position", that's usually a good sign that the risk is minimized, but putting your head out there within your existing employer can be tricky. 

However, I'm not sure that last point applies to the trades, because there are 10:1 skilled laborers to supervisors or managers, and I think that can be hard too. Even if your making $100k as a 20yo industrial plumber, you're looking down the career path at your supervisor who's in his 60's and saying "do I have to wait that long to have his job?" 

 

KyAllroad said:

What a depressing thread.  

I went to a wake/funeral service last night for a 57 year old family member. They had everyone walk by the casket at the end and I watched 75 people walk down the side past me. 

My thought was - where are all the old people at?  

Oh, wait I told myself; we're the old people now. 

berkeley

SV reX said:

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

Ok, this hasn't been pointed out yet, so I might as well.

Your math aint mathin.  A positive of $150k?  So they are living with no bills for those 4 years, somehow?

Based on current average figures for your general area: rent, power (not water or other utilities,) phone, food, gasoline, and car insurance will take out about $35,500 annually.  There are definitely other costs I'm missing.  Internet, for example.

Additionally, doctors get $150k in debt for school.  Your average person ends up with about $40k of debt for a 4-year degree.

The break-even is a lot closer than you seem to think it is.

Mr_Asa said:

SV reX said:

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

Ok, this hasn't been pointed out yet, so I might as well.

Your math aint mathin.  A positive of $150k?  So they are living with no bills for those 4 years, somehow?

Based on current average figures for your general area: rent, power (not water or other utilities,) phone, food, gasoline, and car insurance will take out about $35,500 annually.  There are definitely other costs I'm missing.  Internet, for example.

Additionally, doctors get $150k in debt for school.  Your average person ends up with about $40k of debt for a 4-year degree.

The break-even is a lot closer than you seem to think it is.

I'm was just bringing it back up as I kept hearing the "pay is good" in the trades and I was curious as to what the actual dollar value would be. I have friends in that area who have children who will and have been graduating high school for the past 5 and through the next 5 years. If I were to discuss a future employment path, knowing actual values from someone in the local area would seems like they'd be in a position to hire and more familiar than myself would be helpful. Based on what you're saying, I'd advise them to go 45 minutes down the road and get an engineering degree from Auburn should they desire going to college. I'll lay out a career path here that I'm very familiar with. Join the Pulp and Paper program (Georgia Tech also has a great one - lots of scholarship opportunities). For in state Auburn, ~$23k per year tuition/fees/room & board/etc. and expected to go up 3-5% per year, so roughly $100k over 8 semesters starting now, you wouldn't pay tuition for the time you are co-oping. They require you to do at least 1 co-op (full semester), and 1 internship to graduate. The most paper mills in the area there pay ~$22/hour plus overtime for interns along with a housing stipend or provide group housing, so a assuming you work 1 summer (~12 weeks) you can pick up about >$10k then, and then a semester (~17 weeks) then >$15k, most also bump up pay like $1/hour per year you've completed and returning terms). That's assuming 40 hours per week but depending on the area, 50-60 hours are common if you want to get at it. Then if you'd start as a process engineer a mill, you'd be starting at ~$85k/year plus bonus and benefits, most have killed their pensions though, 50-60/hour weeks plus on call or covering nights/weekends. Moving to shift supervisor or assistant superintendent or other managerial route would be ~$120k/year within 5 years. A lot of retirement in this system now so as with everything, go-getter's are able to move up fast if they're willing to change locations and/or companies also.

Mr_Asa said:

SV reX said:

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

Ok, this hasn't been pointed out yet, so I might as well.

Your math aint mathin.  A positive of $150k?  So they are living with no bills for those 4 years, somehow?

Based on current average figures for your general area: rent, power (not water or other utilities,) phone, food, gasoline, and car insurance will take out about $35,500 annually.  There are definitely other costs I'm missing.  Internet, for example.

Additionally, doctors get $150k in debt for school.  Your average person ends up with about $40k of debt for a 4-year degree.

The break-even is a lot closer than you seem to think it is.

This is why I avoided specifics. I figured someone would debate.

Living expenses for those 4 years are gonna be paid regardless. It either gets paid for with borrowed money, or earned money. I'm not saying there is a bunch of money in savings at the end of 4 years.

I don't have any doctors in the family, so I can't offer info on that, but I think $150K for a Dr is pretty light. 2 of my kids had to pay about $160K for general BA degrees.

YMMV. 

In reply to johndej :

I think that's fine.
 

I never compared this to engineering. Not everyone can be an engineer. 
 

Best of luck!

In reply to SV reX :

You did offer specifics, and then did bad math.  Its not a debate?

Whatever, I said my part.  Just don't do bad math.

In reply to SV reX :

Oh I understand, my baseline would be minimum wage ($7.25/hr or -15k/year) or going into the armed forces ($21,400/year E1 but estimated $43,500/year counting food and housing needs).

I understand not everyone is interested in an engineering track but I feel like a lot of the young guys you'd want to be starting into the trades who are ambitious are likely doing that math themselves and deciding to take on some debt and go to school if they are able to. 

In reply to Mr_Asa :

I'm pretty sure $150K + $150K = $300K, so no bad math.

I did, however, use the word "debt" when I intended "cost", or "expense".  You're right. The average debt is about $40K. That was my mistake. 
 

But the COST of a 4 year college program isn't $40K. The average cost for in-state public 4-year college is $108,584.  The average cost for out of state students is $182,832.  The average cost of private university is $234,512 over 4 years. (According to the Googlz).

One group of young people is spending money for 4 years, the other is earning it.  Feel free to do the math how you like. 
 

My point stands. There is a lot of need in the trades for people to fill good paying jobs, and very few young people rising in the ranks to fill those positions. 

In reply to johndej :

I always recommend the armed forces to young people. It's a better choice than construction. (Most young people I've spoken with aren't interested)

SV reX said:

In reply to johndej :

I always recommend the armed forces to young people. It's a better choice than construction. (Most young people I've spoken with aren't interested)

I rather my son do construction 😂

I assume all the young people saw the below research by the Pew Center and decided to get a college degree instead: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/is-college-worth-it-2/

Here is the money shot, ignore the terribly written headline:

The gap in earnings is massive and getting larger. Especially for young men, the employment outlook if you don't have a college education is awful.

The downstream impacts for non-college educated men are frankly horrific: 

From: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/06/opinion/working-class-death-rate.html

Oh, and you're less likely to get married as well! And the problem is getting worse.

From: https://www.prb.org/articles/the-rise-of-the-no-bachelors-bachelor/#:~:text=Their%20research%20reveals%20a%20growing,men%20with%20a%20bachelor's%20degree.

If you told an 18 year old male that he was more likely to earn less and die early and alone unless he gets college degree, what do you think he would say?

=======================================

Maaaaybe we should stop asking young people why they are making completely rational choices, and start asking old people why they've constructed a world that is so blatantly stacked against the poor and working class.

We're struggling to replace workers at our place for a number of reasons even though the pay and benefits are pretty good.  People now seem happy to trade money for flexible schedules and time off that we can't give. I was talking to a trainee bus operator a few weeks ago, and hustling 3 days a week with doordash was paying him what we are in five. If I was starting over it would be tough to get me to give up steady 4 day weekends to push a 60 ft bus through city traffic five nights a week, and likely miss most holidays and family events for the first 7-8 years.  People's priorities aren't what they once were for better or worse.