Indy-T, Nocones 2026 Challenge Build

nocones said:

In reply to DrMikeCSI :

Probably something like that.  I'm going to look at Honda center steer racks, or if I can just use one end of a normal rack and have a nice bracket.   There are many center steer kart type racks for cheap on the jungle site..  but I'm not sure those are better then a backyard modified OEM rack would be.    I also may look at a VW beetle steering gear like what is used on Formula Vees

Honda are rear steer, Audi are front steer.  Where do you want to put the rack, in front of or behind the front wheels?

The Audi racks (think old 4000/Fox) are kinda neat in that they are half racks.  The driver side mounts with an end-on flange and the other side is just a stub that sticks out, that a bracket that holds the inner tie rods attaches to.

Think of it like a RHD rack with the whole left side missing, and a pair of throughbolts at the business end instead of a threaded hole in the end.

With this, you can mount the rack almost wherever and then make your bracket so the inner tie rods are where they need to be for bumpsteer reasons.

I like where this is going 

Alright now that parts hoarding has commenced it's time for a budget and such update as well as having enough parts on hand for a mockup.

Everything is on the floor "Roughly" where it belongs.  The rears are about how wide they will be, the fronts are approximately the correct distance away and the seat is where it will go.   The rear wheels are about 6" larger in diameter then the  actual ones will be (31's vs ~25.5), the fronts are not wide enough and a bit to tall as well.  

Some frame learning now that its in my possession. 

1. Model T frames are 55-65lbs depending on how many brackets they had.  The one with the engine crossmember is 65, the one without is 55lbs.

2. I may be able to keep the front crossmember on the chassis and use it for a steering support.  I think the chassis will need to taper out slightly to be wide enough to fit around the Vave covers.  I will either introduce a bend into the rails (they are straight now) or may just make the spacing the ~26" it needs to be.  If I taper it I will try to retain the front crossmember as part of the frame.

3. I can't believe people make hotrods out of these wihtout additional structure.  There is very little torsional stiffness.  I will obviously fix that with additional tubes and triangles.  

I will do a better mock-up when the garage is a little cleaner this week preparing for the immenet arrival of the drivetrain donor.  

Okay, Budget to date:

Metal:$0 budget to date.  $477 purchased but actual useage on the car is unknown.  I have some leftover tubing from the MG and LMP360 in the Garage that is just scrap.  I bought enough new to do the car and then some because I was concerned about steel prices over the next month.  I will track actual steel use on a per ft basis like I did with the LMP360 including inventory from my pile.    I am not 100% sure what the final cost will be.    

Car:$75. Two original real actual Model T frames believed to be 1926.  Only 1 pair of framerails will wind up on the car so $37.50.  

Wheels:$350. 15x14 Centerlines with 31x14x15 Hoosier Drag Slicks + 2 bare 15x3.5" Centerline Front Runners.   Unexpectedly the Slicks are very soft with nice deep dots and probably useable.  I will sell the Front Runners and recoup their value.  The rear rims are actually for the Autox tires.  A smaller set of drag slicks will be used.  

Total: $387.50

Hey everybody, look at me! I'm a racecar driver!

This is so berkin stupid. Please keep going.

You may be able to make some argument that not only are the framerails stock, they're at stock ride height as well.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

You may be able to make some argument that not only are the framerails stock, they're at stock ride height as well.

as written, the rules allow you to make a roof rack from the stock frame rails. 

Anybody else concerned about the drivers feet in the event of an incident?  

I would like to see the wheels in front of the feet if possible.

I'm sure you have taken this into account, it just looks a bit sketchy right now.

This is awesome BTW.

Those don't look to be HF jack stands, so they should be strong enough to protect the driver's feet. 

I understand the concern with legs/wheel relationship.  The mockup is not entirely accurate, the wheels will actually be in front of my feet.  My ankles will be roughly at the axle centerline.   If the wheelbase has to grow slightly to ensure this it will.  My feet will be about 3" further forward of where they are in the LMP360 and its' operational risk is MUCH higher then this things ever will be.  

That said the 2x2 lower rails, 1.5" upper rails, and 1-3/4 x .120 wall diagonals are what would protect me in a front impact anyway.    

If you want to be concerned about something be concerned about the rear upper A-arm mount pointed at my knee.  I know that's what I'm concerned about and will be putting lots of engineering thought into.  

nocones said:

If you want to be concerned about something be concerned about the rear upper A-arm mount pointed at my knee.  I know that's what I'm concerned about and will be putting lots of engineering thought into.  

back when i was a working stiff, we used a couple of teardown and benchmarking companies to study existing vehicle designs:

caresoftglobal.com

a2mac1.com

you might be able to get a free trial and poke around looking at crash structures. or, you could spend a dollar and just walk around in your local junkyard. it's all about giving the energy a path to dissipate and/or go around you.

If it's truely challenge use only, something like an FSAE impact attenuator on the front might be enough and would package nicely into that grille you've got mocked up.  Many of them are just layers of foam or aluminum honeycomb.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

If it's truely challenge use only, something like an FSAE impact attenuator on the front might be enough and would package nicely into that grille you've got mocked up.  Many of them are just layers of foam or aluminum honeycomb.

Like this.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

Something I would note is that to my knowledge FSAE cars rarely exceed 60 mph - at the drags many of our Challenge cars are often topping 100 mph and the really fast folks are going 120 or more. Consider F=MA in devising impact attenuators. 

- Bill C

In reply to BillCuttitta :

If we can't trust nocones to scale accordingly and still make it look cool, who can we trust?

In reply to BillCuttitta :

How often do Challenge cars nose in to the wall at the dragstrip, anyway?

I believe the Corvette kart did a few years ago.  The challenge winner did this year.

Removable crash nose for the drags?

This is awesome!  

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Nocones knows what he's doing, my comment was a general one about impacts at speeds greater than your average AutoX. There have been plenty of situations at the Challenge over the years, we want to make sure everyone is as safe as possible. 

- Bill C

Okay after thinking about what I would have to do to make the "high mount" chassis work I decided to mock up a "low mount" chassis.  To do the high mount at a minimum I would of had to widen the chassis some for shoulder clearance and probably switch right to left on the rails so the flat side would be towards the bag of meat.  I wanted to keep the chassis more "stock" then that.

So with a low mount the T chassis would have the Rear suspension, and drivetrain mounted to it.  Then the front "driver cell" of the chassis would bolt on with the front suspension as a unit.  This would keep the T chassis almost unmodified (I will have to rotate the front crossmember 90 so it's flat not humped up or down.  I will accept that.  

It also becomes much more of a "modified model T" then just using the T chassis metal as metal.  

The chassis would nestle in and get bolted on some flanges on the bottom of the drivers cell area.  The seat would be hung from the white tubes so it nests with the green T chassis.  

I think this is going to work best and enable removeal of the engine "easiest".  I don't anticipating needing to remove the engine as much as I do with the LMP360 but its nice to be able to just unbolt some things and have the tight car dissapear from obstructing.   I may even go as far as having the sidepod areas with the Radiator and battery and such attached to the T chassis so the engine and all it's ancilaries don't even have to be disconnected just brake lines a few wires and lift...

Also 13×10" rims acquired.  

$120 added to the budget.  

Donor car acquired.  

This project Is saving this famous former challenge car from the scrapyard.  

Singleslammer can elaborate but the rear suspension broke on the way home resulting in this getting parked outside, the turbo and stuff removed and it sitting .    .  For 9 years..   it became a scrap metal storage facility as the intention was for it to go to the scrapyard.  Enter my dumb idea "saving" it.  

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

You may be able to make some argument that not only are the framerails stock, they're at stock ride height as well.

as written, the rules allow you to make a roof rack from the stock frame rails. 

I believe as written the rules would allow you to zip tie the frame rails to the roof rack. 

In reply to nocones :

I think you should put the turbo back in the passenger seat. 😂