Best Analog 2+2

Hello everyone,  I been searching for about 6 months for my next project and started getting obsessed with finding the simplest car that could at least handle a track day.  I’m looking for a 180+ hp 2+2, carb’ed, no power steering, roll up windows and reasonably well handling (no leaf spring live rear axles) for under 10k ish.  (20kish after it’s complete).  What got me going on this was I was pining away for my old 56 bug that had LSD and a 1.9L with webbers.  I was thinking the adult version of that would obviously be an early 911.  Last time I looked I could pick up a driver for 5k but that is no longer the case by any stretch of the imagination........beater 912s are in the mid-20s now, unbelievably.

So I looked at early falcon/novas  with 4 link conversions, lots of 70s Japanese cars like 510’s, rx2s, celicas, etc.   I looked at 2002s and e21s and even 924/944s.  I think the best car to get is an e21 with a carb’ed M20 swap.  It meets all the criteria including the cost limit.  Alternatively there was actually one year of 944 that came with manual steering and manual 924 doors could be swapped in.  The only problem is there’s no Weber kits, all the ones online have custom fabbed manifolds.

Anyway, the reason I’m posting all this nonsense is to confirm I haven't left anything obvious off the list and that carb’ed m20 e21 is the best car to meet the criteria listed.  I appreciate any feedback.

thanks

Datsun 240/280z would be my recommendation.  The 280s can be converted to carbs very easily, as that's what I did on my old 280zx race car.

Also, welcome to GRM.

NINJA edit: I missed the 4 seater requirement.  You can still do that with a 280z, the just don't look as nice (and are certainly cheaper to find).

Limited slip can be swapped in using modern Subaru STI r180 differentials.  180hp is a bit of a stretch, but has been done.

I know it isn't carbed... But a late E30 325is gets you close to what you want without having to actually build anything.

I prefer the handling characteristics of the 2002 to the E21, but I've not driven either chassis with an M20, so that's a bit of a variable, as it adds some weight over the front end. E21 will certainly be cheaper at this point, though finding a good one may take some time. They're fine cars, and they came with the M20 in Europe (320/6 and 323i) so the chassis is clearly designed to handle the weight and power. Is it the best car to meet your criteria? That's for you to decide. It is certainly a good candidate in my eyes. Are you planning triple Webers or a downdraft? I've seen photos of one running a 4bbl Holley.

For your $10,000 to $20,000 price range there are a lot better choices for BMWs than an e21, unless you really like and want that particular model.

Wow thanks for the quick feedback.  I looked at e30s cause the aftermarket is phenomenal but I think they all had pw and ps.  I didn’t think of the 280 2+2, mainly due to the....uh....aesthetic dysfunction???  :)

Im definitely going with dcoe’s.......

Early Rabbit 4 door

Early Plymouth Horizon 4 door

As factory they won't have your hp required but they also won't have the weight penalty. 

944 + SBC + carb (God, why?) = solution.

924 + Weber conversion (again, why?) + euro or 924 turbo pistons to raise compression = solution

You don't see carbs on 944's because the factory EFI is pretty damned good and generally just works.

John Welsh said:

Early Rabbit 4 door

Early Plymouth Horizon 4 door

As factory they won't have your hp required but they also won't have the weight penalty. 

The early Omni had a VW 1.7L with a carb (the Holley that was a terrible POS throughout the entire run of Chryco cars at the time).  The later cars came with the 2.2L and that terrible Holley knockoff of a Weber 2-bbl, which just needs more CR and some webers to make some decent power (I think I have a set of MP forged flattop pistons for an early 2.2L, somewhere in my stash).  Then again they made turbocharged ones that are seriously fun to toss around.

How about a 4 door Maverick. 

Is it possible to then add a 300cid I6 and a 5 speed manual trans? 

Or, final goal somewhere between here:

And here:

Rust-free E21 + M20 & trans + conversion parts + DCOE x3 + suspension and brakes rebuild/upgrade will take a chunk of change to accomplish just in parts. Spend more for a complete rust-free body if you can find one. Are you doing all the work, including the body and paint (if necessary)? Keep in mind that spending 20k (or even 10k) on an E21 is very likely money you will never be able to recoup.

As for why?  I have no good reason other than my dd is a 09 sti which looks like a jet engine under the hood, now just craving simplicity and a direct connection from my foot to the engine.  Also, FI is great but 30 y/o FI not that great.  After components start to fail they can be a PIA to diagnose.  I had a 91 camero TPI CMC car I was building and wound up just stripping the whole top of the engine off and replacing everything.  Wasn’t cheap or enjoyable.

Forgot to list rwd as a requirement.  A maverick track car, hmmmm.   Actually of all the American muscle cars the early mustang notchbacks seem the most affordable and closest to meeting the requirements.  It’s gets a bit pricy with suspension updates but I was looking pretty hard at them before settling on the e21

There’s actually an Alpina e21 with a m30 2.3 on Vegas CL for 8k and a home built m20 2.7 for 14k.  This m10 e21 is also nice if a little under powered.  Listed for 10k in Sedona: 

https://prescott.craigslist.org/cto/d/prescott-1981-bmw-320i-e21-winning-show/6832881110.html

https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/d/las-vegas-bmw-alpina/6825647781.html

i was planning to find a rust free 320is which has the 5 sp and lsd stock, drive it for a while and do the swap myself, but money wise I agree finding a swapped one would be better

looking mainly in southwest so assuming rust won’t be that much of an issue......hope as a strategy usually works right?

I know it's FI rather than carbs, but if I were in your shoes I'd be calling about that Alpina yesterday. If it's legit and complete that's the car to have, and the value will not drop like most E21s.

Yea I’m with you.  I contacted the Alpina guy last week by email but no response.  Im very curious to find out what’s wrong with it.    It’s suspicious how little info is there.  The pics show all the standard Alpina goodies except the graphics.  Even if it’s 300k miles it’s worth 8k to me.  Carb conversion is about 1500 so no problem there.  

A Foxbody with Cobra IRS and the Maximum Motorsports catalogue thrown at it would be another option. Checks the boxes, anyway. 

You can get a really super nice clean one for under 8k. You'll easily surpass 180 hp at the wheels, cheaply and reliably. Can be built as analog as you'd like. RWD. Tons of aftermarket support. Handles crazy good with 5-10k worth of suspension upgrades (less if you can fab some of the stuff). 

In reply to John Welsh :

Having owned a 4dr maverick, I am not sure it meets handling requirements. It was fun as hell to throw around and drift on what mustve been 135 wide tires, but I suspect it would start to drive weird on wide rubber. I recall the suspension being a bit wonky feeling at the limit. I suspect a track car would be more fabrication than ford. Miss that thing. Got it with 32k and original everything, watched my ex gf swap the headgasket, a few months before my next gf totalled it. Good times. 

Back on topic, I too would be eyeing a 2002, 280z, or even an old italian with that shopping list. Perhaps an early 22r celica or (non ae11) rwd corolla? The choice for me would be based on whatever I happened to find in good nick that tickled my fancy. You are looking for a very particular, but sexy, combination. 

Well you got me there. I didn’t even think of Fox bodies and I forgot the cobras had IRS.  Did any models have manual steering?  I’m sure over the 10s of variants there must have been....

Yeah, you can do a lot with a Maverick to make it preform- but that's also the problem, they need plenty of aftermarket stuff. Plus, their opening for their radiator is small enough that it limits some people on engine choice.

I vote for a Datsun 240/260/280z too. Good 2.8L blocks are easily found, their suspensions are easily made to preform well, and there's tons of cheap parts and the 2.4/2.6 are already carbed from the factory. I know there's several members here who have, or have had them and can point you in the right direction for certain things.

Nugi I tried really hard to fit an alfa gtv into the box, there’s one near me in pieces for 5k, but I just couldn’t get near the total cost requirement.  I like a lot of the early Japanese stuff, but I really wanted rear IRS and most of them are live rear axle.  Here’s an interesting one I ran across:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/oakland-1974-toyota-corona-mk-ii/6824897915.html

I am of course biased but Capri + 5.0 = :-D

Sure, it has a leaf sprung rear axle but treated the right way it works great. Team Blitz will sort the V8 conversion parts, brakes and handling if you don't want to diy it all.

Gustaf

Since you liked the beetle and miss it how about something similiar, Karmann Ghia with whatever engine of your choice to hit your HP goal.

Id probably do a 240z if it was me with that wish list though

EDIT: missed the 10k budget, a ghia is gonna be hard in that range 

Racer156 said:

Nugi I tried really hard to fit an alfa gtv into the box, there’s one near me in pieces for 5k, but I just couldn’t get near the total cost requirement.  I like a lot of the early Japanese stuff, but I really wanted rear IRS and most of them are live rear axle.  Here’s an interesting one I ran across:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/oakland-1974-toyota-corona-mk-ii/6824897915.html

This Toyota is live axle, but the coupe body shell was rare when new. I would do it to be different. That said, trim parts are much harder to find than, say, Alfa

In reply to Racer156 :

You can get manual conversions from many different suppliers for a Fox.  I just changes our Lemons fox to manual, Craigslist rack cut down tie rod ends and an$8 pulley in place of the pump.  There are direct bolt in options also in many different ratios.

I'm biased but a Fox chassis car with the book thrown at it is a fun car and analog.  Mustangs are going up in value but still within your budget.

You should have no issue building the hell out of a Foxbody for under $20k. Mine will be built and Coyote swapped for less than that.

I sometimes see quite a few aborted projects online that already have a manual rack and a cage installed, clean title for a few bucks. Be sure to verify the torque boxes and strut towers are free of rust. A roller such as this, around me in PA anyway, can range from $500-$2k, depending on: the amount of parts left on it, title, Hatchback or Notchback (avoid a vert like you would avoid herpes), cage, suspension upgrades, etc. Do some solid research and see what works for you.

Build a healthy 302/351 and pair with a good Tremec.

Throw a Maximum Motorsports box at it, depending on your goals: linky 

My recommendation(call to order so you can spec it): linky

Oh, don't be afraid to give MM a call directly and explain your intentions. They will guide you in the proper direction.

Don't bother with a 03/04 Termi IRS. A Pandhard Bar, Torque Arm, and HD lower control arms thrown at a solid 8.8 will do just fine. Additionally an IRS adds I believe 45 pounds over a solid axle. Plus, after you drop 12-1500 on the IRS, you are going to need to upgrade everything at an added cost, plus people tend to thrash on Termis so it will be beat, I personally dont feel the marginal grip advantage of an IRS over a built 8.8 is worth the extra cost and weight. I do believe some race classes will gig you for a "non factory" rear. YMMV and this is only my opinion

As for the carb aspect you might consider something like Fitech's Go EFI system. It's simplistic, reasonably cheap, and self tuning. Just for me personally, as someone who likes the idea of carb simplicity, i would put this type of system on anything that came with a carb.