$200X challenge budget questions

Two $200X questions:

1. Where are the rules posted at? I knew how to get to them on the old site, but I couldn't find it on the new site and I didn't save a copy for reference. Actually, I couldn't find much challenge related stuff at all, so I suspect I'm doing something wrong.

2. Fair market value question. If I buy a complete car to strip parts from, does FMV apply for parts of the car? For example, if I buy a complete wrecked car for $500, but I only actually use the transmission (or whatever) for the challenge vehicle, does that mean the trans cost me $500 or would FMV apply?

Thanks gang.

Bryce

2 - The transmission cost you $500. OTOH, if you use lots of parts, they all cost you $500.

FMV appears to be the hardest concept to grasp.

Let me try to explain it in a different way:

FMV applies if you find a piece of (scrap), wether in your garage on the side of the road or in a dumpster.

IF YOU PAY FOR A BUNDLE OF PARTS (box, parts car, individual part whatever) then the entire bundle = sold price. If you use one piece from the bundle the piece = the entire sold price. IF YOU SELL THE BUNDLE DOWN to recouperate your costs then the sell down will go against your maximum allowable recoup on the budget. If you sell the $500.00 car down to $0.00 for the transmission remember that you can only recoup $504.00 more before being againt the budget max.

The trick is finding a $500.00 car with $2500.00 in parts that you can use, sell the rest of the car for $500.00 and keep the $2500.00 worth of goodies.

Yeah, FMV is a tough one for many people (not just myself), some of this budget stuff seems to be a really gray area when you compare real world budget vs. challenge budget. Thanks for the clarification John...not the answer I was hoping for, but if them's the rules, them's the rules.

Does anybody have a copy of the rules they can copy/paste into here for reference? I need to print them out and put them in the shop so when I get some hairbrained idea I can check the rules and stop myself from doing anything stupid.

This entire bundle price = item price seems kind of weird when the buying in bulk is the opposite. If you buy 12 quarts of oil but only use 6, you only have to include half the budget if I understand correctly. However, from the comments above it sounds like if you bought a SBC block, 2 calipers, and a St. Pauli Girl poster, you have to count the whole budget even if you only use one caliper and the poster (unless of course you sell the others and still have budget to recoup).

Clear as mud!

Bryce

Revised January 7, 2008

Car Building and Budgets

1. This Challenge is designed and run as an editorial event for a privately owned magazine. As such, the rules and event should be taken with a certain spirit in mind. In other words, all entrants should play well with others. It will make the event much more pleasant for all of those involved. Grassroots Motorsports reserves the right to refuse entry to any individuals or teams. Individuals or teams that behave in a manner that reflects poorly on this event or the magazine will be immediately disqualified and their entries will be removed from the editorial write-up.

2. If the rules do not say you can do something, you cannot do it.

3. Cars must be constructed so that they can be raced in a safe manner. Driver ingress and egress must be considered in the construction of the car. In the case of an accident, the driver must be able to exit the car quickly and safely. We strongly encourage that the builders bring their cars to a licensed NHRA technical inspector (see item on Safety Inspections) for their review of the car.

4. Vehicles and their component systems may be modified or substituted while observing the guidelines set forth by these rules. Drivetrains, suspensions, brakes, exteriors, interiors, electrical systems and fuel systems may be modified. Wheels and tires may be replaced.

5. Only Production-based passenger cars are allowed in the regular competition. All Locosts, kit cars, Zambonis and the like are allowed only in the Special class (See Rule #26).

6. Cars must be roadworthy, meaning basic street equipment must be present: functioning headlights, uncracked windshields, working brake lights, working horn and DOT-approved tires.

7. Non-DOT-legal slicks are allowed at the drag strip, but they must be replaced by DOT-legal tires for the autocross competition.

8. All major body panels of the car that are being used as a foundation for the Challenge car must be present. This includes the floor pan, inner fender panels, hoods, fenders, roof, sills, etc. Bumpers may be removed or replaced. Full frame cars must retain their full frame, while unibody or subframe cars must retain their full floor pans, subframes and the like. Exceptions to this rule are listed in Rule #9.

9. Modifications may be made to the original unibody or body and frame for engine and suspension swaps and modifications, but only to the extent neccessary to perform the change. This can include removing portions of the stock unibody and frame and replacing them with corresponding sections from a donor production car.

10. Interiors may be gutted, although the basic dashboard or dashpad must remain. If the original dashboard pad has since rotted or deteriorated away, it may be replaced with a full width piece of aluminum.

11. Windows may be replaced with clear Lexan or polycarbonate that meets all safety requirements.

12. Fenders and hoods may be replaced as long as the replacement is solid and safe, resembles the original piece and has a positive latching device.

13. Cars do not have to be built for any recognized sanctioned race class. Nitrous oxide, forced induction and radical engine swaps are permitted. (As per SCCA rules, nitrous oxide shall not be used at the autocross event.)

14. All builders shall spend no more than $2008 on their cars. The purchase price of the car must be equal to or less than $2008. Title fees, registration and insurance are not counted toward the budget. Tax that is paid and shipping (or transportation costs) of the car and parts used in the building process must be counted toward the budget.

15. All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2008 budget.

16. Parts that are not used may be traded or sold up to the initial cost of the car or parts deal. In other words, if you buy a $500 Challenge car, you can recoup up to $500 of your budget by selling parts. (If you do turn a profit on selling parts off the car, we suggest you take your significant other out to dinner to compensate them for having a $2008 car hanging around the house.). Once the recuperation limit has been reached on a car or parts deals, trading is not allowed.

17. The maximum amount of money that can be recouped in a budget is $1004. This includes parts cars, parts deals and the Challenge car itself.

18. Parts that are given to the competitor by a company or person must be figured into the budget at fair market value. Sponsorships are allowed, but the value of any product or service that is used in building the car must be figured into the $2008 budget.

19. Entrants must show up to the competition with complete documentation totaling, at most, $2008. Entrants must bring receipts or verifiable proof for each item on the car, including the car itself. This information will be available at registration for all entrants to view. The more information provided about the car, the better. Photos are extremely helpful in documentation. If you are submitting digital files, make sure that they are at least 1280x960 pixels. All submitted paperwork shall become the property of Grassroots Motorsports and will not be returned. If you need to keep copies for your records, turn in photocopies to GRM.

20. If parts or vehicles are already owned by the competitor, they must be figured into the budget at fair market value at today’s prices.

21. Cars that are purchased at nonpublic, dealer-only auctions must be valued at fair market retail pricing.

22. Work that is performed at a commercial, for-profit place of business must be billed to the budget at fair market value.

23. Past Challenge Cars: Past Challenge cars may be entered as long as they meet all current rules.

A. Past Challenge cars and their parts cannot be sold and repurchased in an effort to depreciate their value for budget purposes. If parts are sold off the past Challenge car, the amount credited to the budget cannot exceed A) fair market value at today’s prices AND B) must meet all other challenge rules (i.e., if you sold $300 worth of parts off of your $300 car for the last challenge, you can’t credit yourself $200 for a bumper that you took off for the upcoming challenge, as you’ve already credited yourself the maximum amount per previous challenge budgeting).

B. Tires and brake pads on a past Challenge car, if they are worn out, can be replaced up to the value at which they were originally listed for the previous Challenge (i.e., $200 tires can be replaced with up to $200 tires).

1. Parts that break during the Challenge (and during transportation to the Challenge) may be replaced at the event on an emergency basis, but penalty points may be awarded if the total value exceeds the $2008 limit.

2. Front license plates and holders shall be removed. We think these are ugly and will reduce the likelihood that we’ll use your car, if so equipped, in any large shots in our coverage of the Challenge.

3. A Special class for Locosts/Kit Cars/Specials will be run for exhibition only. It will be scored independently from the rest of the competitors. These cars can be home-built, road-worthy vehicles that meet all Challenge rules and safety regulations. The Special class competitors will only be eligible for the Special class trophies, unless one of them explodes spectacularly. Then we might reconsider.

4. Protests: Any car may be protested by another entrant.

A. The entrant who is questioning the legality of another car shall present his or her case and a protest fee of $50 to the Independent Council. The Independent Council will rule on the car. If the Council says the car is legal, then the protest is dropped and the protest fee is forfeited. If the Council says the car is not legal, then the owner has two choices: run for exhibition only or go home. In this case, the protest fee would be returned.

B. The Grassroots Motorsports staff can protest any entrant at any time without having to pay a protest fee. The GRM staff can also pull any car from the Challenge results and/or magazine coverage for any reason deemed necessary.

C. The ruling of the Independent Council shall be binding and is not open to dispute or public debate. The Independent Council will be selected by the GRM office staff before the event. All protest intentions must be presented to the Independent Council by the end of the first day of competition.

1. The GRM staff reserves the right to penalize competitors for delaying competition due to engine failure on the drag strip. Since we have the drags on Saturday as the last leg of competion, the temptation will be there for competitors to “boost until it blows!” to get the best possible drag time. This will be frowned upon for several reasons, including the following: It’s dangerous, it slows down competition when we have to clean up the track, and it unfairly biases the scoring toward those competitors with a “win at all costs” mentality. The penalty for this will be on a sliding scale from one to 25 points and will be determined by the GRM staff.

2. The GRM staff reserves the right to make any changes, additions or adjustments to these rules at any time.

Safety Inspections

1. All cars must pass a safety inspection in order to compete. It is entirely the competitors’ responsibility to make sure that their cars can pass the safety inspection.

2. All cars must pass a Martin Sports Car Club autocross safety inspection. Examples of items that may be checked are throttle return springs, battery tie downs, lug nuts, seat belts, brake pedal pressure and the overall soundness of the car. (Stock components in good working order will pass.) More information on typical autocross rules can be found at The Martin Sports Car Club Site.

3. Cars must also meet all NHRA safety regulations. This includes, in addition to the items required by the autocross safety rules, the presence of front, side and rear windows. Open-top cars may run if the driver is wearing arm restraints and approved seat belts. All cars capable of running 11.49 seconds or better must have a NHRA legal roll cage, while OPEN cars capable of running 13.99 seconds or better must have a NHRA-legal roll cage. All cars must also feature a working taillight. If the required safety equipment is not in place, entrants will be scored with a time equal to the best time allowed for the car’s level of preparation. For example, if you run a 11.29 in a car without a roll cage, you will be scored as a 11.50. More information on NHRA rules can be found at the NHRA web site.

4. The following safety gear can be installed on the Challenge vehicle or used by the driver without counting toward the Challenge Budget: seat belts or safety harnesss and their mounting hardware, window nets and their mounting hardware, arm restraints, fire extinguishers or fire extinguishing systems, SFI-rated scattershields, helmets, driver’s suits, shoes and other personal safety gear. The items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage. It is recommended that you purchase your safety gear from our sponsors.

but i'm just throwing that out there from my memory, so don't take it word-for-word.

Bryce:

JB's description is correct.

However, realize that the essence of what he is saying is that the tranny price becomes $0. If you are going to buy a car for the tranny, the whole point is to buy one that has enough other parts on it to sell at least $500 worth, so the budget amount is zeroed out.

The trick then becomes judicious management of the overall recoup amount.

I'm just re-wording what he said. He probably said it better than me.

The bill of sale for my R/T claimed $300, so do I go by that, and what does the 1000 worth of standard replacement stuff(alternator, cat. converter, front wheel bearings) count for?(as in, can I get away with not claiming it?)

sorry to thread jack

The actual purchase price is the amount you put in your challenge budget. So, If the bill of sale was what you actually paid and not an attempt to give uncle sam fewer tax dollars, the bill of sale it is.

in that case, the R/T can run in about 4 centuries, now to see if sharron still has that escort for $300, honestly

SVreX wrote: The trick then becomes judicious management of the overall recoup amount.

Most definitely, makes me wish I paid more for the car so I could recoup more. I knew purchase price limited recoup, but I didn't realize the recoup limitation also applied to buying parts cars/piles of parts and only using part of them, I was thinking you could claim FMV for the parts you used or split it up like people do for buying parts in bulk and only using a portion of them. Fortunately I asked before doing anything stupid, now I know!

Bryce

Are stock safety replacement parts ie: brake pads, fluids, ball joints etc included in the budgeting?

Are roll-cages included in the budget?

aussiesmg wrote: Are stock safety replacement parts ie: brake pads, fluids, ball joints etc included in the budgeting? Are roll-cages included in the budget?

Yes to all.

Well now that I've got to get going on my 2009 San Diego entry (Damn, they called our bluffs!) I have to decide what route to go.

Question: If I tried to keep a project within budget, but it just drifted too high, would I still be welcome as an exhibition entry? There's something very cool that I've been contemplating, but it may be too much of a reach to keep it under $2009.

Yes. If you drift high and say oops, I blew it, I want to play anyway, we will point and laugh and let you play. If you drift high and cover it up and get discovered, we will point and laugh and kick you to the curb! Okay not really, but I have to sound imposing to discourage cheating. But really, if you're at the front end of the build and you are already saying, "well, this might not make it..." you ain't gonna make it. And the whole point of the competition is making it under budget.

That's my unofficial two cents, not the official line.

The safety gear has been changed for 2009 to exclude OEM style brakes from the budget:

Safety Rule #4

The following safety gear can be installed on the Challenge vehicle or used by the driver without counting toward the Challenge Budget: seat belts or safety harnesss and their mounting hardware, window nets and their mounting hardware, arm restraints, fire extinguishers or fire extinguishing systems, SFI-rated scattershields, helmets, drivers suits, shoes and other personal safety gear. Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders and brake cylinders/calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with stock pieces. The items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage. It is recommended that you purchase your safety gear from our sponsors.

So do you have to have side windows or not?

There could be a pinto at the event if that is the case. Need to find out if I can get it running.

SVreX wrote: The safety gear has been changed for 2009 to exclude OEM style brakes from the budget: Safety Rule #4 The following safety gear can be installed on the Challenge vehicle or used by the driver without counting toward the Challenge Budget: seat belts or safety harnesss and their mounting hardware, window nets and their mounting hardware, arm restraints, fire extinguishers or fire extinguishing systems, SFI-rated scattershields, helmets, drivers suits, shoes and other personal safety gear. Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders and brake cylinders/calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with stock pieces. The items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage. It is recommended that you purchase your safety gear from our sponsors.

thats a very good move, i need to replace most of the brake hardware on my build, nice to know those dollars wont come off the total..

According to the rules, yes, the car should have windows in it to meet NHRA requirements.

See Safety #3:

"Cars must also meet all NHRA safety regulations. This includes, in addition to the items required by the autocross safety rules, the presence of front, side and rear windows."

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2008-challenge-window-rule-question/1565/page1/#post20995

The Abomination had no top or side windows and I ran the AX and drags with arm restraints. I hope this doesn't screw up my finishing position.

Cars must also meet all NHRA safety regulations. This includes, in addition to the items required by the autocross safety rules, the presence of front, side and rear windows. Open-top cars may run if the driver is wearing arm restraints and approved seat belts. All cars capable of running 11.49 seconds or better must have a NHRA legal roll cage, while OPEN cars capable of running 13.99 seconds or better must have a NHRA-legal roll cage. All cars must also feature a working taillight. If the required safety equipment is not in place, entrants will be scored with a time equal to the best time allowed for the cars level of preparation. For example, if you run a 11.29 in a car without a roll cage, you will be scored as a 11.50. More information on NHRA rules can be found at the NHRA web site.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand-the NHRA tech guys are not the best at reading the rule books. I was told I wouldnt be allowed to run my miata because I didnt have a top or a rollbar. He was getting irritated at my insistance that he was wrong so I just borrowed a hardtop for the drags. On the other hand, unless you are running 10 second 1/4 mile times they are pretty lax about all the other tech issues.

GSmith wrote: Cars must also meet all NHRA safety regulations. This includes, in addition to the items required by the autocross safety rules, the presence of front, side and rear windows. Open-top cars may run if the driver is wearing arm restraints and approved seat belts. All cars capable of running 11.49 seconds or better must have a NHRA legal roll cage, while OPEN cars capable of running 13.99 seconds or better must have a NHRA-legal roll cage. All cars must also feature a working taillight. If the required safety equipment is not in place, entrants will be scored with a time equal to the best time allowed for the cars level of preparation. For example, if you run a 11.29 in a car without a roll cage, you will be scored as a 11.50. More information on NHRA rules can be found at the NHRA web site.

ok, so no one read the thread i linked where it said you were ok without windows if you have window nets?