Brake bleeding

My daughter and I did brakes on her '02 2.5TS Sunday. New rear wheel cylinders, new shoes, new front pads. Opened the master cylinder reservoir and the bleed screws while retracting the pistons up front.

After that, we bled the brakes using the 2-person method. I went RR>LR>RF>LF, once per corner. Car was level on 4 stands. Ignition was completely off. We bled pretty much all the old fluid out and had no bubbles showing in nice, clear fluid at each bleeder. Topped off the reservoir after each corner.

On the test drive to bed in the pads, the brakes worked OK, and you can stomp them hard enough to engage the ABS. However, my daughter tells me the pedal engagement is notably lower than it was.

NASIOC has since informed me that the correct order is RF>LR>LF>RR; not sure what the source of that info is.

Should I bleed it again in the order above? Does the ABS system want the car running or the ignition on during bleeding? Do I need to bleed the master? Any other suggestions? Thanks.

To be on the safe side, bleed some more. Look for bubbles again, but any imbalance should trigger a light.

hard to understand that sequence ... I've always used the same as you did ... 1st = farthest from the MC, i.e. the PR

2nd = next farthest from the MC, i.e. the DR

3rd = next farthest from the MC, i.e. the PF

and last the DF ..

but yeah I'd re-bleed just because you can .... when ever I've completely changed out the brake fluid the pedal has had a much different feel ..

The source of that info is from Subaru FSM. Hard to believe, as every car I have ever worked on shows the order you noted but Subaru's use a different rotation.

NGTD wrote: The source of that info is from Subaru FSM. Hard to believe, as every car I have ever worked on shows the order you noted but Subaru's use a different rotation.

Curly-Q'd brake lines would lead to this.

And how did you adjust those shoes?

The drums fit pretty closely over them with the self adjusters in. Once we got out on the street, I backed up and came to a firm stop 4-5 times.

I had a different problem and fixed it with a tip from this board:

A slightly soft pedal: Was fixed by tilting the car up at the back. Some one posted that fluid will pass air on the long level line runs to the back of a car if the car is level. They recommended tilting the car up at the back on the stands. It worked for me.

Hey, I'll try that when I re-bleed in the Subaru order. It was probably tail-down if anything because of two different size stand jacks, but I'll put the bigger ones in the rear next time. Thanks.

Duke wrote: The drums fit pretty closely over them with the self adjusters in. Once we got out on the street, I backed up and came to a firm stop 4-5 times.

there has to be a hard forward stop in between each hard backward stop, to reset the shoe positions relative to the adjustment mechanism.

alternately, you can adjust the shoes by turning the star wheel with a screwdriver after putting the drums on. i adjust them out until the drum will only spin about 1/2 to 3/4-turn when giving it a spin via thumb and index fingers on the wheel studs.

AngryCorvair wrote: there has to be a hard forward stop in between each hard backward stop, to reset the shoe positions relative to the adjustment mechanism. alternately, you can adjust the shoes by turning the star wheel with a screwdriver after putting the drums on. i adjust them out until the drum will only spin about 1/2 to 3/4-turn when giving it a spin via thumb and index fingers on the wheel studs.

I would say that's about where they were at reassembly. I will do the forward-backward self adjustment a half dozen times, then top the reservoir if needed, and see if any of that makes a difference. If not, I'll put the car back up nose down and run through the proper bleed sequence. Thanks, all.

How does the emergency brake work? When I did the drum brakes on my pickup I had to adjust the drum brakes 3 times to get them to properly work. The emergency brake gave a good indication of how well the brakes were adjusted, two clicks meant the drums were adjusted too close, four click too far away, three clicks just right. I don't know how subarus work though.

Dunno, it's an automatic, which means I've never put the emergency brake on in my life with the car. We'll see if the cable's seized or not.

Adjust the rear shoes, and when you check the bleed, just crack the bleeder screw without pumping.

Subaru uses a diagonal brake hydraulic system. Basically this is so if one brake fails, you don't loose either all rear or all front braking, but instead the to diagonal will still work and have somewhat stable braking still. Also you bleed the FR first to bleed the ABS system. Since it is an 03, you also have a black 6 pin connector and 2 ground wires under the dash next to he green test connectors above where the clutch would be. It can be used to cycle the ABS before bleeding. Look on the forums for a how to.

AtticusTurbo27 wrote: Since it is an 03, you also have a black 6 pin connector and 2 ground wires under the dash next to he green test connectors above where the clutch would be. It can be used to cycle the ABS before bleeding. Look on the forums for a how to.

Mine is actually an '02, but I assume this still works:

ABS SEQUENCE CONTROL WITH DIAGNOSIS CONNECTOR 1) Connect the diagnosis terminals to terminals No. 3 and No. 6 of the diagnosis connector beside driver’s seat heater unit. 2) Set the speed of all wheels at 4 km/h (2 MPH) or less. 3) Turn the ignition switch OFF. 4) Within 0.5 seconds after the ABS warning light goes out, depress the brake pedal and hold it immediately after the ignition switch is turned to ON.

I also assume that the last paragraph means I am supposed to turn the key OFF while coasting, wait for the ABS light to go out, then turn the key ON and immediately stomp the brakes.

Duke wrote: Dunno, it's an automatic, which means I've never put the emergency brake on in my life with the car. We'll see if the cable's seized or not.

you do realize that it's actually more important to use the parking brake with an automatic transmission than it is with a manual ? ( or at worst equally as important ... for differing reasons )

with an auto the, auto transmission parking pawl will eventually reach the point that ... assuming you've parked on a hill ... you won't be able to get the transmission out of park, without releasing the pressure by pushing the car either forwards or backwards ( depending on the hill )

I recommend some sort of pressure bleeding system if you are having trouble getting all the air out of an ABS system car. The years not taken away from them end of your life will be worth it. You can make one for about $20 or less with a plant sprayer.

You don't have to worry about bleed order with a pressure bleeder and it will save you money on brake fluid.

Duke wrote:

AtticusTurbo27 wrote: Since it is an 03, you also have a black 6 pin connector and 2 ground wires under the dash next to he green test connectors above where the clutch would be. It can be used to cycle the ABS before bleeding. Look on the forums for a how to.

Mine is actually an '02, but I assume this still works:

ABS SEQUENCE CONTROL WITH DIAGNOSIS CONNECTOR 1) Connect the diagnosis terminals to terminals No. 3 and No. 6 of the diagnosis connector beside driver’s seat heater unit. 2) Set the speed of all wheels at 4 km/h (2 MPH) or less. 3) Turn the ignition switch OFF. 4) Within 0.5 seconds after the ABS warning light goes out, depress the brake pedal and hold it immediately after the ignition switch is turned to ON.

I also assume that the last paragraph means I am supposed to turn the key OFF while coasting, wait for the ABS light to go out, then turn the key ON and immediately stomp the brakes.

No the car shouldn't be moving, hence why it says wheel speed must be under 2mph. Connect the wires in the pin, turn the ignition on and the ABS light will come on then go off shortly and come back on again. Between the blinks is when you depress the brakes and hold them. The ABS pump will cycle several times. You can then just turn the ignition off and repeat a few times.

AtticusTurbo27 wrote:

Duke wrote:

AtticusTurbo27 wrote: Since it is an 03, you also have a black 6 pin connector and 2 ground wires under the dash next to he green test connectors above where the clutch would be. It can be used to cycle the ABS before bleeding. Look on the forums for a how to.

Mine is actually an '02, but I assume this still works:

ABS SEQUENCE CONTROL WITH DIAGNOSIS CONNECTOR 1) Connect the diagnosis terminals to terminals No. 3 and No. 6 of the diagnosis connector beside driver’s seat heater unit. 2) Set the speed of all wheels at 4 km/h (2 MPH) or less. 3) Turn the ignition switch OFF. 4) Within 0.5 seconds after the ABS warning light goes out, depress the brake pedal and hold it immediately after the ignition switch is turned to ON.

I also assume that the last paragraph means I am supposed to turn the key OFF while coasting, wait for the ABS light to go out, then turn the key ON and immediately stomp the brakes.

No the car shouldn't be moving, hence why it says wheel speed must be under 2mph. Connect the wires in the pin, turn the ignition on and the ABS light will come on then go off shortly and come back on again. Between the blinks is when you depress the brakes and hold them. The ABS pump will cycle several times. You can then just turn the ignition off and repeat a few times.

Well, I assumed if it was supposed to be done at zero speed, they would just say "while stopped" instead of "set the wheels moving at < 2mph". Excessive clearness in technical writing isn't clear sometimes.

Is there a jumper provided, or do I need to make one from some scrap wire? And I assume they mean the driver's side floor outlet for the heater, because this car does not have heated seats.

Thanks for the clarifications.

wbjones wrote: you do realize that it's actually more important to use the parking brake with an automatic transmission than it is with a manual ? auto transmission parking pawl will eventually reach the point that ... assuming you've parked on a hill ... you won't be able to get the transmission out of park

Well, I suppose you are correct in theory, but I have probably half a million combined miles over the last 30+ years that really have not borne that out in practice. Admittedly, I don't live in San Francisco, but I do live with mild hills.

I've had two that were like that ( of the 5 automatics I've owned over the yrs) the worst was a '61 Mk X Jag that was so big it took 7 - 8 people to push the only time I forgot to set the parking brake ... yeah HEAVY car and VERY STEEP HILL ( downtown Asheville ) ... after that I've never put an auto in park before I've set the parking brake