Buying a Legend car

I have been looking at these as a bridge to road racing as I have mostly done paved ovals for the last 15 years. But a local group has started a road race group so I will join in the spring. Looks like a lot of fun with reasonable costs. The care are all compliant with the INEX series rules which I like. 

The info on the new water cooled motors is very sparse. There is a forum but very little recent traffic and discussion more or less stopped during the air cooled era. 

The air cooled cars are a lot cheaper than the new MT/FT09 water cooled three cylinders. So I need to decide between half the purchase price for a relatively fresh air cooled 4 cylinder, or all the money (15-20k) for the latest and greatest. 

So just looking for input and opinions to help me decide one way or the other. 

Here is a four year old air cooled for example: No mention of how many races on the motor but I would be looking for something with five or ten race days. 1200 is the oldest motor and can be run unsealed. The other three (1250 air cooled and the two water cooled) must be built by an authorized shop and sealed. I expect the 1200's are not competitive any more as they reduced the allowable compression, probably to encourage racers to buy sealed motors and get their piece of the action. 

This is a 1250 (sealed engine)

And here is a similar age car (I think if they have not been bent the year is not important, except the very old ones which have lighter walled cages and no longer INEX series legal.) with an updated water cooled motor. Is it worth $5000.00 more than the one above? 

There are lots of these cars available and prices are all over the place, but generally the three above are the classes of motor that dictate the price I will have to pay. I do not want to get a slow car, but I do not expect to win anything anyway so maybe there is no point in paying for a water cooled one. It strikes me that water cooled cars may go longer between rebuilds because of the less violent heat/cool cycles, but then again they are higher revving 900 cc motors compared to 1200 or 1250 water cooled so a but more highly stressed. 

My comment is worth no more than what I'm charging you for the advice. 

1. this looks super fun, although I've never seen any legends car in person.

2. my tendency is to buy the cheapest version of the machine I want, frustration to follow. DON'T do this. Buy the best car now. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

My comment is worth no more than what I'm charging you for the advice. 

1. this looks super fun, although I've never seen any legends car in person.

2. my tendency is to buy the cheapest version of the machine I want, frustration to follow. DON'T do this. Buy the best car now. 

That has been my approach all my life. For once I want to buy something that I can jump in and have fun with rather than strip it down and rebuild or start from scratch.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

My comment is worth no more than what I'm charging you for the advice. 

1. this looks super fun, although I've never seen any legends car in person.

2. my tendency is to buy the cheapest version of the machine I want, frustration to follow. DON'T do this. Buy the best car now. 

Also, they sound and look about as fun as you can imagine a bike engine race car that is literally built around the driver could be.

Knowing nothing about this, I'd probably go for the second. Are any of the 1250 FI? I'd pay money not to deal with carbs.

theruleslawyer said:

Knowing nothing about this, I'd probably go for the second. Are any of the 1250 FI? I'd pay money not to deal with carbs.

Those are CV carbs on those motors. They are a slam dunk to deal with, you just need to keep them clean.

I shall chime in with the buy the best example you can afford. Sorting someone else's race car sucks.

The only other comment I have is how risk adverse are you? I've always felt the side impact protection on these cars for road courses are just OK. Keep in mind I've been driving old formula cars which are probably worse but one should ask themselves that question.

No direct experience with Legends cars, but what I heard was that they ran A/S tires, so they were traction limited due to wheelspin. That meant that spending a bunch of money on a trick motor did you no good because you couldn't put the power down no matter what condition the motor was in. That applied to short tracks, so on a road race course, it probably does matter how much power you are getting. The newer triples probably do make more power, thus the higher prices.

I also heard that the frames were very spindly and not very safe for a higher speed road course, but perhaps that was addressed with the thicker tubing on later chassis.

They do look like a lot of fun! 

Do the Legends car race by themselves or are they sharing a group with other classes?  There are a couple guys who runs them in our local NASA group C, meaning they're out there on track with 3500 pound Camaros and the like.  Not something I'd care to do.

Can't remember where I read it but it seems like good advice (but does assume that the car is currently being raced): Take delivery of the car as it rolls off the track. The reason is that various good/special parts have a way of wandering away before you arrive with your trailer weeks later.

I would say get whatever seems to be the most reliable, I remember seeing dwarf cars running on a dirt oval many years ago and I'm not sure they even finished one heat without at least one red flag to clean up oil and metal bits off the track.

A buddy ran one in Autox years ago and it made fantastic noises and was fast.  Dooo eet.

I saw them race at Firebird in Phoenix many years ago.  They look like huge fun.  Sit in it with your helmet one to make sure you fit.

Legend cars are a dime a dozen in the Charlotte Area.  Granted, they are set up for OVAL Track racing. Find one that meets your budget and have a ball

Enjoy

84FSP said:

A buddy ran one in Autox years ago and it made fantastic noises and was fast.  Dooo eet.

As an autocrosser, I've always wondered how one of these would perform. 

Tk8398 said:

I would say get whatever seems to be the most reliable, I remember seeing dwarf cars running on a dirt oval many years ago and I'm not sure they even finished one heat without at least one red flag to clean up oil and metal bits off the track.

Dwarf cars are much less regulated than Legends cars, so you will get chassis builders and parts suppliers of questionable reputation 

It's been some years now but I've watched the INEX guys running at Hallett in Oklahoma, and also spent some time on track with them during practice sessions.  I think it's a relatively inexpensive way to go racing, and they looked like they were a riot to drive. They're also kind of like watching a Roman chariot race...all they were missing were spikes on the wheels and whips.    If you're averse to contact with other cars during a race it's not the series for you, but if you don't mind a little banging in the corners go for it.

racerfink said:

Tk8398 said:

I would say get whatever seems to be the most reliable, I remember seeing dwarf cars running on a dirt oval many years ago and I'm not sure they even finished one heat without at least one red flag to clean up oil and metal bits off the track.

Dwarf cars are much less regulated than Legends cars, so you will get chassis builders and parts suppliers of questionable reputation 

I second this. I'm sure there are some phenomenal dwarf car builders - but there are some really sketchy ones out there. With Legend cars, for the most part, you get a known quantity, at least when they were new. Repairs vary by who repair them, of course. I'd stay away from some of the original builds, unless for something like autocross. There's a reason why they are no longer legal for INEX-sanctioned competition. As far as engines, that's a good question.

Every year I battle about getting one, however the local tracks to me do not allow them at track days, nobody runs them (no competition), and many of the local big clubs are not interested in letting them run. When I talked to WRL which do allow tubed chassis vehicles, the speeds are on par with a Miata so they are not competitive compared to a Nascar RR car. I have opted the past couple years to Karts, because a shifter kart is cheaper, faster, and I can road race it at the big tracks or go to any spring track for $20, RR track has plenty of competition, but the sprint track is practice only. I have been debating about a 250cc superkart, which are the speed of a GT3 car and are setup for RR. The expense on the engine is the most out of karts and requires some engineering on the bodywork. I would also consider the resale value of these, if they are hard to sell or not, $15-$20k would seem to get you a pretty decent RR car that is faster and has off the shelf parts at a local auto parts store. Regardless good luck.

I ended up with this one. 

Air cooled car that had been running an asphalt oval. It is extremely clean and straight and came with a couple nice extras like a decent full containment seat and a suppression system already plumbed in. Has a healthy (I think) 1250 with unknown history but I bought a new water cooled MT06 to drop in so I did not need to agonize over when I would airmail a rod. It will be around $16,000 track ready with new tires and the new motor.  

Looks sweet! Keep us posted on your journey racing it. I've long been curious about the legend cars. I've seen a couple pop up on classified ads converted to street legal which would be a riot.

Sorry if I missed this being stated before, memory what it is. Are these cars set up mirror imaged, or, are they only circle track left turn only, or road course left, right?

There has to be way wider wheels and tires right? For people who live in states where anything can be street legalized? 

Legend cars run as sports racers in ICSCC Conference here after. In Conference their run group is pretty much wings and things F, FA, Sports Racers and Formula Libre. They run a championship series in BC WA and OR. I believe there's a fellow Brian M. Who runs a Hornet at Kent who knows his way around the whole SCCBC ICSCC deal.

Enjoy

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

This one is an asphalt oval car to lots of left hand camber but I will straighten it out this morning. Frames and motors are square but this one has an offset fuel cell. I think you can buy them centered or offset. But the transmission and driveshaft tunnel are on the right side so I am not sure what the corner weights are yet. I will scale it this afternoon and see what I need to do.