Proposed Grassroots Motorsports $2014 Challenge Rules

Good work GRM, good work.

I liked the stock brake rule for all the reasons Andy cited but I would budget for brakes anyway. I missed the meeting but I gave my proxy ballot to Jonny, hopefully he voted with both arms.

Good tires are pricey and most of us do the Challenge because we're cheap bastards. My accountant would LOL if I asked for 1000 duckets to spend on tires for a POS race car. That's reality regardless of the rule. She knows there are tires sources amongst the GRM crowd anyway. Tire rule will likely only sort out the top 5 and I'd rather watch them perform at 10/10.

moparman76_69 wrote: David said first and foremost that it (rules enforcement) needed to be easy. They do have a magazine to run also. If anyone is dumb enough to not spend 10 bucks on some new pads then hopefully tech catches them.

My contention on the OEM brake rule is not trying to save $10 on pads (I would replace them anyway). The issue is in my case, I have an RX7 rear axle assembly that was sitting in the mud for a few years, but it is an LSD and was cheap (thanks Andy). I can turn the rotors and clean up the calipers but it would be safer to just replace both and know the rear brakes work 100%. At 100 mph on the drag strip, this is a safety item, not a performance enhancement. I understand that on the front of my car, that if I upgrade the front calipers, I will need to include the caliper cost and pads for the larger calipers in my budget since this would be an upgrade from OEM.

Brett_Murphy wrote:

Any four-wheeled, production-based vehicle that was originally sold as a passenger vehicle

I don't see "In the United States" in there. So, if somebody showed up with a production based European car or a Brazilian Volkswagen, that would be alright? Or is the wording of that rule the basis for a Locost being legal?

Draft of rules said: Costs to pick up your hooptie from the seller are exempt.

Road trip to South America!

How do you count selling a load of blow in the budget?

I think Andy has made a strong enough point about the brakes. I'm just chiming in to say I feel the same. Without a stock brake exemption we will have unsafe cars. My jaw actually dropped at the town hall meeting when ending this exemption was even considered. I was rendered speechless.

Our Mustang has cheap common stock brakes, so this rule would not hurt us. But our TR8 stock brakes cost a fortune because of the rarity of the car. We did not buy stock front rotors even with the exemption because of the high cost. My point is that a rare, 38 year old car needs new brake parts, or it has to stay home for safety reasons.

Another point I would like to make. Our Challenge cars are not Trailer Queens . We do not Park them until the next Challenge. We took the TR8 to the SCCA National tour, and plan to take the Mustang. We flog our cars at least once a month with two or more driver, so tires and brakes wear out. Take away the tire and brake exemption, and you take away our ability to show people what you can do for $2000. I like to think we are a rolling GRM advertisement.

How many years has it been since we've even had a cheater in the mix? I look around and never give the budgets a second thought. Any question has always been put to bed after a couple beers worth of story telling. I would dare say there's not a better bunch when it comes to self-enforcement. When suspected cheaters arrive they're snubbed in the parking lot, scored low in concourse and mocked on the forums. Ain't nobody got time for that.

VWguyBruce wrote: How many years has it been since we've even had a cheater in the mix? I look around and never give the budgets a second thought. Any question has always been put to bed after a couple beers worth of story telling. I would dare say there's not a better bunch when it comes to self-enforcement. When suspected cheaters arrive they're snubbed in the parking lot, scored low in concourse and mocked on the forums. Ain't nobody got time for that.

For those of you lamenting four figures for a set of Hoosiers and can't make it to a race to buy take-offs for cheap, go here:

http://www.johnbtires.com/

275/50R15 Hoosier A6s for $145 apiece. That's not much different from what you'd pay for a new set of Toyo R1Rs.

I hadn't considered that some people can't get good "street tires" for the cars/wheel sizes that they plan to use, for that reason I fully retract my objection to the "open" tire rule. Bring on the fast odd balls with sticky rubber!

In reply to Alan Cesar:

Thank you, I don't have the opportunity to go to a "somewhat local large scca event" to get takeoffs for nothing....while that 580/set is better than expected, I'll still try to make the $200/set r6's I've found work. Why, because I'm a cheap bastard.

Also, do we have a set date yet? I need to make sure its not the week my sister gets married.

has there ever been a brake-related incident at the challenge?

In reply to AngryCorvair:

I believe there was mention of people hiding the fact they didn't have brakes.

AngryCorvair wrote: has there ever been a brake-related incident at the challenge?

Nobody wants to be "that guy"

I'm hoping I can make it to this Challenge, and the rules sound pretty good to me! I would basically be building a DD, just adding some bolt ons and making it light, so the minor details shouldn't affect me. I may even go for the sub $1000 class. When is the official announcement and final details?

There have been more lugnut/wheel stud failures resulting in errant tires. A white FB, a gray E30, and a white Scirocco. Come to think of it, all of those cars use wheel bolts.

That's not to say there won't be any brake calamities due to budget skimping.

<<<<has wheel bolt car.

AngryCorvair wrote: has there ever been a brake-related incident at the challenge?

I was almost one this year.

Found out 1 week before that my pads were gone (completely), metal was thoroughly corroded, and 1 caliper was seized and not doing anything. Sucks, I know- I'm stupid.

I replaced them without hesitating, knowing there was no budget impact.

The final, final proposal was just sent to the staff for final approval.

dherr wrote:

moparman76_69 wrote: David said first and foremost that it (rules enforcement) needed to be easy. They do have a magazine to run also. If anyone is dumb enough to not spend 10 bucks on some new pads then hopefully tech catches them.

My contention on the OEM brake rule is not trying to save $10 on pads (I would replace them anyway). The issue is in my case, I have an RX7 rear axle assembly that was sitting in the mud for a few years, but it is an LSD and was cheap (thanks Andy). I can turn the rotors and clean up the calipers but it would be safer to just replace both and know the rear brakes work 100%. At 100 mph on the drag strip, this is a safety item, not a performance enhancement. I understand that on the front of my car, that if I upgrade the front calipers, I will need to include the caliper cost and pads for the larger calipers in my budget since this would be an upgrade from OEM.

I rebuilt my 84 GSL rear calipers (and fronts) for $1.50 @ set of seals using a 3 stone hone, air to pop the caliper piston and some cleaning fluid... 3 years ago, they still work great

AngryCorvair wrote: has there ever been a brake-related incident at the challenge?

Yes prior to the brake part exemption...None since.

In reply to aussiesmg: I have sourced the caliper rebuild kits and they are now $5 a piece and yes I can bead blast off the rust and clean them up to reuse. But they are rough and the sliders are iffy. Same with the rotors, they can be turned and reused but are pretty thin and is it worth the risk? As others have already said, if it is in the budget, then many of us will salvage the existing parts, but if it is not in the budget, many of us would replace the rotors, purchase rebuilt calipers and install new pads and know for sure the brakes are good to go. Making sure people don't skimp on the brakes does not change the spirit of the event and keeping the cars low budget in my opinion.....

wheels777 wrote:

AngryCorvair wrote: has there ever been a brake-related incident at the challenge?

Yes prior to the brake part exemption...None since.

what year? what car? what was the resulting damage? i was there in 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 and while I do remember a couple cars without functioning rear brakes, i do not recall any car-to-car (or car-to-anything-else) contact as a result.

I believe the brake issue horse has been severely beaten to death. We hear you guys and have made changes to the rules.

And yes, think about the children.

Up to half the Challenge car’s purchase price may be recouped into the budget through the sale of parts originally included with or attached to the Challenge car at the time of purchase

So if you buy a car and a parts car as a package deal you can only recoup half that price from the sell off of parts/scrapping of the parts car?

Oh and:

David S. Wallens wrote: We (the staff) originally envisioned a more restrictive tire rule--budget cap, etc., etc.--but based on participant feedback from our town hall meeting decided to open it up. To be honest, policing the used tires was one of the biggest headaches. Are those "used" tires really used, or did they have only one run on them? So, you get four "free" tires. Now, how do you spend them?

Maybe a LeMons approach would work? I.E. tires are safety items and do not count toward the budget, but they have to have a minimum wear rating.