More, er, front, uh, rear, aah, spri... bar.. wha?

Okay.

Had a couple of events running the Celica now in FSP autocross. Last time, soooooooooo loose. So I took off the rear bar and put a bigger front bar on. it helped, but the car is still loose. Not suicidal loose anymore, just stoopid loose.

So next step- more front spring? Er, less rear spring? Less rear spring is hard - don't know where to find that. Even more front bar? Kinda the same thing. I may have to figure out how to fabricate an adjustable front bar.

Dunno- this whole "what the hell am I doing" part of the build is troubling. Big part of doing this car was to learn. Well, guess I'm a learnin'!

Have you played with tire pressures at all?

I played a lot today, but man, it was C O L D ! I ran the rear way, way down and it helped. I'm on V710s from a couple of seasons ago - old rears from my E Stock MR2. On the MR2 I run 35/36. On the Celica today I ended up at 26/21. It helped, but the set up is still just off a good bit. It's that part where I'm totally guessing at what to do that's causing problems. lol Sure had fun though!

What are you running for spring & bar now?

Camber?

Also, what he said (^) about tire pressure?

Super-subjective: Does it just feel like imbalance, or does it feel like the rear end is just not working properly? Not that this will allow me to tell you anything useful, just curious.

Super-loose with no rear bar and the softest rear springs you can readily come up with?

Front springs are 550lb., rears are 6K. Rear springs are tricky for this car. I have AE86 springs on it now and they fit pretty well. Probably some softer springs out there if I looked. These are progressive, too, so that's not so great. Sure a lot easier to find front springs though. I have regular old coil overs on the front so I can get about anything. I have the 800lb. springs I bought first. Maybe throw them back on and just see what happens.

It feels to me like the rear is not working at all. I don't have my LSD installed yet, but I could hardly even take off. Yeah, it was cold and that was party of it, but just crazy wheel spin. The car is all front weight. But it just doesn't feel like there's any weight transfer at all. I don't have a ton of experience to measure it against. I guess my MR2 is not a great comparison since it's got more weight in the rear. But in it, when I get to the gas, the rear always hooks up. In the Celica, if I get to the gas too hard it just spins.

The cold weather is maybe playing a bigger role than you think. Even my most stubborn plowing VW's over the years have gotten loose and over-steery on cold days. I'd wait for a warmer test to really make any decisions.

Didn't you say something about the panhard bar needing attention and you had to roll one wheel well lip to keep the tire from rubbing? Did you fix that before this autoX? Does it have the rear tires pushed out of their normal track? If all of the above it true, that's what I would focus on. It would be hard to say exactly what kind of problems that would cause. For one thing it may handle differently in left hand and right hand turns.

Sounds like binding in the rear suspension to me. Those have a non parallel four links, if I remember my old 78 correctly.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

You have 6000lb rear springs?

Graefin10 wrote: Didn't you say something about the panhard bar needing attention and you had to roll one wheel well lip to keep the tire from rubbing? Did you fix that before this autoX? Does it have the rear tires pushed out of their normal track? If all of the above it true, that's what I would focus on. It would be hard to say exactly what kind of problems that would cause. For one thing it may handle differently in left hand and right hand turns.

I did, no, yes and you make a very good point. Though, I'll tell you, it was lose turning either way, for what it's worth.

I get SO excited on autocross days! I just want to make it go fast- right now! Let's go! But you're right, need to take a step back and look at everything. That panhard needs to be addressed, as do the wheels and tires. Not to mention installing the LSD. Those will all make a big difference in the handling. No point spending a lot of time or money getting it to work like this when all that is going to change anyway.

It's off the pace, probably by two or three seconds. But it was probably a second closer than last outing, so headed the right way. Need to just get back to my "one step at a time" approach and cover some more ground. If I can find another second before the next event it'll be getting in the ball park.

mblommel wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: You have 6000lb rear springs?

6kg/mm - yes, guess my notation was odd. It works out to about 335 lb/in. But if I went to 6000 lb/in I bet it would make it worse!

Stop changine things. Other than tire pressures, learn to drive what you have. You won't win, but you will learn kinetic control of a large mass.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: Sounds like binding in the rear suspension to me. Those have a non parallel four links, if I remember my old 78 correctly.

That's my thought. If the car's requiring something really weird on setup, there's usually something else going on besides normal weight transfer. I don't know what expected spring rates would be on this car though.

In reply to NOHOME:

There's a lot to be said for that. When I was starting in E Stock I had an experienced driver co-drive with me for a season. That's what he got me to do. He said the car was fine and I needed to stop fiddling with the struts after every run.

This is a little different because the point of the build is to make a car that can run competitive times. Probably won't win, especially with two FSP National Champion cars in my region, but I'd like to get it up to speed.

The rear suspension is stock besides the springs. I have all the bushings and need to replace them anyway. But you guys could be right- along with graefin. Could be that the rear axle is pushed over far enough to make the control arm bushings bind.

I think I can get an adjustable panhard for not a lot of money. Worst case, shouldn't be hard to make one. At least get that sorted a little. Need to check all the alignment too.

Thanks everyone!

My contribution:

Staggered tire widths. Run Corvette wide in the rear, drag skinnys up front. Should balance out fine.

GET RID OF THE PROGRESSIVE RATE SPRINGS!!!!!!!!!

10kg/mm(550) and 6kg/mm should be fine, but progressive springs and transitions SUCK BALLLS

Since the Celica is basically a BIG AE86... find yourself a set of linear springs. Now, especially since the Celica is a big AE86, you should be more able to run the popular AGX combo (MR2 units up front and Camaro units in back) and this should allow you some adjustment.

Whatever you do... get rid of the progressive springs... OR ride around with 130#s in the trunk

oldeskewltoy wrote: GET RID OF THE PROGRESSIVE RATE SPRINGS!!!!!!!!! 10kg/mm(550) and 6kg/mm should be fine, but progressive springs and transitions SUCK BALLLS Since the Celica is basically a BIG AE86... find yourself a set of linear springs. Now, especially since the Celica is a big AE86, you should be more able to run the popular AGX combo (MR2 units up front and Camaro units in back) and this should allow you some adjustment. Whatever you do... get rid of the progressive springs... OR ride around with 130#s in the trunk

I had the same thought on the springs. I have Koni 8010 Race struts in the front and Koni SAs for a Mustang on the rear, so I have adjust-ability. After my first run I ran the fronts up to full stiff and the rears to full soft. It did help.

Someone smarter about this than me should chime in but I don't think an LSD is going to help, in fact it will probably make this worse.

As oldskewl said the rates aren't far off but the progressive rear isn't helping things,the rear 4 link tends to bind without much body roll(lifting the inside rear,exactly why no rear bar and bigger front bar help) also if its lowered much the front RC gets low while the rear doesn't change much leading to a fairly steep roll axis inclination.Front and rear RCA's will help but not allowed if your running scca ruleset.What made a large difference on mine was fabbing an adjustable height panhard bar and converting to an equal lenght 3 link set-up and ditching the upper control arms competely.Of course thats a bit overkill,not sure of your goals/useage. My suggestion would be to find linear rear springs for it(its heavier than an AE86 by a bit so you might get away a little stiffer than 6k but I'd be careful),fresher rubber and wait for warmer weather before chasing the chassis much.Never chase the set-up on cold and aged tires.

Wondering if the panhard is making things worse through added bind...

In reply to kevlarcorolla:

Thanks! I've seen your car on the Club 4AG forums- that thing is amazing. I was lying in bed last night thinking it wouldn't be too hard to make a bracket to go on the axle with a few holes to make the panhard bar hight adjustable.

It's only about 100 lbs. heavier than an 86 in FSP trim. I know you're familiar with Vans old FSP Corolla. His was right at 2200 lbs. I should be right around 2300 right now with a few lbs. to come out yet. But I'm assuming I'm more nose heavy with the 22RE up front.

You know of any place that sells linear 6K 86 rear springs?

Thanks eddie,it WAS amazing as in past tense-I parted it out a couple of years ago and the chassis/composite body was sold to a drag racer(broke my heart)who then decided to go another direction so I have no idea whats become of it. I've been away from the corolla scene for awhile,I suggest posting on club4ag/dorikaze/other AE86 sites looking for a set of springs as I'm sure you find something.

Oh man! I'm sorry to hear that. But thanks a ton for the help, I really appreciate it. One of the big reasons for doing this project was to finally start learning how some of this stuff works, so every little bit is a step down the road. Thanks!

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

mblommel wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: You have 6000lb rear springs?

6kg/mm - yes, guess my notation was odd. It works out to about 335 lb/in. But if I went to 6000 lb/in I bet it would make it worse!

Shooting from the hip... i would actually go higher than that. Like... 500lbs+ and linear.