Heck yea. That Schwinn is great for $400.
Heck yea. That Schwinn is great for $400.
When I got my first real mountain bike I didn't want to drop a ton of $ in case it wasn't for me. That meant going with a used hard tail over a FS. I bought a 27.5+ bike. They were the rage a few years ago and fell out of fashion, basically a almost fat bike with a 3.00" tire that is run on low psi to soak up some of the bumps.
They work really well, the fat ties are good over small and medium rocks and really good on the tons of roots we have where I ride. I have a full suspension bike now also, and I love it. but the plus bike is still more fun on the rooty single track and I don't know that I would want to be without a hard tail.
I have a Specialized Fuse, Trek also made one, I think that it was a Roscoe. Keep an eye out for them, again, they are not the hot set up, so you can get a deal. Also, I can toss the 29" wheels from my Stumpjumper if I wanted. I threw the Fox 36 from my Stumpjumper and it rocks on the Fuse.
93EXCivic said:Not sure how you would benefit from riding without a dropper first though.
Maybe that was a reach. I wouldn't recommend to someone my age to skip the dropper to start with and was glad my wife's rental had one for her first ride. Better to make it easy to get "lower and rearward" without having to get behind the seat than to go OTB on the first ride. I may be rationalizing a bit of "make the kid learn the conscious full motion of moving around the seat and then let him have and better appreciate the upgrade."
I've been mountain biking for over 30 years, and rode BMX as a teenager. When I started, mountain bikes were basically overgrown BMX bikes with 26" wheels and rigid suspensions, and we did all sorts of crazy stuff without limit. The newer technology can be overwhelming, but it is helpful to varying degrees. I think the #1 criteria for all this tech is what type of trails he will ride and what his riding style is. A cross country rider on dirt singletrack will have different needs than a technical rider doing jumps or rock hopping.
My experience is that within your budget, fully suspended bikes are going to be miserable for climbing unless you get a great deal on a nicer used one. A hardtail with a locking front suspension is probably the best answer. I have no use at all for a dropper post, but I ride eastern US mountain trails mostly and would probably feel differently if I lived in the Rockies. Don't automatically assume that 29" wheels are the best answer. They are indeed great for the type of riding that I do (dirt singletrack with lots of roots) but for more rocky/technical trails the 27.5" wheels are the best answer IMO. I'm a big believe in the 1x gear setup, but again I'm not scrambling over rocks and tree stumps very often. Front derailleurs are a PITA and unneccesary with the newer tech. The SRAM Eagle 1x12 groupset is amazing, but not cheap. Hydraulic disc brakes are really good. I would probably rather have V brakes than mechanical discs.
Best thing you can do is find a local bike shop you trust and work with them. Don't worry about the brand, the frames are more or less the same in this price range and it's more about the components. I just upgraded my 14 year old's bike this year; the guy at the LBS is a friend of mine and set us up with a custom build they did on a Diamondback frame with decent SRAM components. It cost around $800 and it's been a great bike for him.
At that price point I would not do dual suspension. Depending on what sort of terrain you have, he might not even need a mountain bike. I used to ride with a guy who had a cyclocross bike with good skills and it was remarkable how well he handled the tough terrain.
That said, I reentered the sport recently after a long hiatus with a Specialized rockhopper 29er with 1X gears and hydraulic disc brakes. Very happy with it. Someone earlier cast shade on disc brakes. I totally disagree. No V-brakes came close to these, and less maintenance to boot.
84FSP said:Mission is accomplished. The pickings are very slim out there - hit a bunch of places and settled on the Trek Marin 5. Pimpy machine despite the lower end front shock. I was surprised to learn it had hydraulic discs on both ends.
trek marlin was going to be my call. I see tons of kids on bikes. Everything from box store to trailcraft full suspension jobs. The marlin line is the sweet spot for a good entry bike. My wife has a 7 and it's a fantastic entry level bike. The marlin frame can easily be upgraded with better components as needs. As a NICA coach I get 25% off all in stock bikes.
number one issue on bikes is make sure they shift ok. I'm always fixing some kids broke ass cheap components. I just. Upgraded my son to adevnt x on his rockhopper.
numebr two is brakes. Keep them adjusted. Easier with hydraulics but can be done with others.
but I love this thread. Op goes I need an entry level bike and people throw the $10k bike flag out there. Let's get the kiid out there on. Bike and see if he likes it. If he does. Then get something better.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
Hey fuel: NICA's HQ is next door to my business! Really nice people, and I totally support what they're doing. Mountain biking is the perfect sport for the athletic, brainy but non-jock type kid.
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
The local trails were better served with a BMX, but riding one a few miles to the trailhead suuuucked. All the trails were in a river valley, all the houses were not, so you had to ride down in, bike a few miles to the trail, ride, then ride up and out.
I love the fact that somehow stacking a whole bunch of gears on the rear cassette is a "technology" change. No, it's a fashion change. There has been no change in the technology of rear derailleurs that make this possible :) In a generation, someone will discover you can get a bigger gearing spread if you add more chainrings up front. Same with "modern" frame geometry with big slack angles, that's a decision to optimize for a certain type of riding, it's not some discovery of a new way to make bikes work. Shock valving and construction...well, we know how they work, but there's definitely an arms race there.
Learning how to use the adjusters on a derailleur - front or rear - can have a huge effect on how a bike shifts. I'd recommend the new owner spend some time taking a bike maintenance course, because the best bike in the world sucks if it's not set up or maintained properly, and it's really annoying and expensive to have to keep shuttling your bike to your LBS to get the barrel adjusters turned by half a turn.
I'd take a cheap shock and good hydraulic brakes over a high end shock and poor brakes. I've experienced the latter and a set of Shimano brakes made all the difference.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The "technology" has been widening the rear axle spacing so far that you need a Q factor like a set of birthing stirrups in order to keep your heels from tagging the frame 
(Grant Petersen like typing detected)
93EXCivic said:pheller said:93EXCivic said:On One has great stuff but shipping will be expensive so expect to pay an extra $150ish to ship. Also the Bootzipper geo is built around a shorter rigid fork so adding a suspension fork won't work well.
Yea On One actually suggests not running a suspension fork.
That said, depending on the terrain, riding rigid might not be that bad. My neighbor recently picked up a 275+ Marin Pine Mountain and despite years on full-suspension it's been his go-to bike. He also is a commuter/roadie-turned-MTB guy, so he doesn't exactly search out technical terrain.
Agreed. I am collecting parts to build me own rigid using a custom frame from Marino down in Peru for bikepacking, more XC trails (especially if I go back to my home town cause it is fairly flat), riding around town, etc. I have a Cross Check but I have found I have more fun hopping off stuff, riding curbs, etc around town then just putting in miles. So I want to build something faster then my full out mtb (especially with it running minions) but with a more mtb geo and flat bars.
I just like that you guys started mentioning On One. I have loved them for a long time, something close to 20 years it seems--I've actually had three On One Inbreds. I still have a now-retired 29er Inbred that sits near my desk in my office. This could bring geometry into the discussion (On One always killed it), but the single speed hardtail is a bit of a niche. If you get it, you get it--nothing wrong with not getting it, though . . .
I appreciate all the input from the hive! Iwill likely do the fork upgrade and some better pedals at the minimum. Plastic pedals are the only thing that is horrifically cheap about the bike as it sits.
Keith Tanner said:I love the fact that somehow stacking a whole bunch of gears on the rear cassette is a "technology" change. No, it's a fashion change. There has been no change in the technology of rear derailleurs that make this possible :) In a generation, someone will discover you can get a bigger gearing spread if you add more chainrings up front. Same with "modern" frame geometry with big slack angles, that's a decision to optimize for a certain type of riding, it's not some discovery of a new way to make bikes work. Shock valving and construction...well, we know how they work, but there's definitely an arms race there.
Learning how to use the adjusters on a derailleur - front or rear - can have a huge effect on how a bike shifts. I'd recommend the new owner spend some time taking a bike maintenance course, because the best bike in the world sucks if it's not set up or maintained properly, and it's really annoying and expensive to have to keep shuttling your bike to your LBS to get the barrel adjusters turned by half a turn.
I'd take a cheap shock and good hydraulic brakes over a high end shock and poor brakes. I've experienced the latter and a set of Shimano brakes made all the difference.
There is some magic to the geometry working or not--length of the front triangle is a huge part of it. My Marin had a 65 degree head tube, but was kind of a short frame (longer stem); it kind of sucked for me, as it was very skittish. My Canfield has a 66 degree head tube, but a much longer front end (and oddly steep seat tube), and it is stable as pie, even with a very short (35mm?) stem.
As someone who has hated (and generally avoided) derailleurs for about 30 years, I can say that the modern clutch mechanism, whatever it is, made a huge positive difference, even reducing maintenance greatly. I have always bent the hell out of hangers, but the clutch derailleur still stayed adjusted, once I bent back the hanger . . .
Oh, and the microdrive thing makes for stronger wheels (kind of like triangulation) and thinner cassettes, which makes lighter, but perhaps on a larger budget.
Yeah, but other than maybe the clutches in the derailleurs we're just talking about design choices and not technology.
The derailleur hanger on my Rocky Mountain is made out of cheese so it needs adjustment occasionally - but better than than the rear triangle :) I can always tell when the hanger is bent because I can't get consistent shifting across the whole cassette.
I know that the length of the cockpit is in the top tube now instead of the stem. I kinda like "skittish", but that's because it's what I grew up riding and it feels familiar to me. Part of the "feeling bigger than the bike" thing, the current design trend of long wheelbase, wide bars and fat tires makes the bike feel clumsy underneath me by comparison. My favorite trails are the ones where I'm picking my way through rocks and ducking trees, so I gravitate to a bike style that responds to that. Blasting over the top might be faster but it's not engaging to me.
If that sounds like the bike equivalent of a Miata, well, we'll just call that consistency :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
One of the things I really liked about mountain bikes compared to BMX was the long stem. I am/was 6'5 with a 35" inseam and always felt most comfortable on an 18 or 19 inch bike with a 150mm stem. Something small you could throw around under you while navigating a really tight trail. I had a 17" bike for a while but my feet kept hitting the front tire, maybe just a little too short...
Seeing the new bikes gives me a reaction like that Gran Torino gif 
Obviously people like it but that sort of frame geometry is exactly what I like to get away from.
I've always enjoyed calling such long stems "tillers" because the steering is so indirect.
Fueled by Caffeine said:but I love this thread. Op goes I need an entry level bike and people throw the $10k bike flag out there. Let's get the kiid out there on. Bike and see if he likes it. If he does. Then get something better.
No one suggested a $10k bike.
I would be happy to suggest one if it helps the narration that some people always try to push. Maybe a nice e-Bike...
As E-Bikes are a touch inflammatory among the bike community I was really curious to hear what the guys at the Trek shop had to say. To a one, they hated them till they rode one. No they all want one. Just hanging out while the prices come down and I have the chance to ride one.
Re read what I wrote. I didn't say people were pushing 10k bikes. You guys need less hurt in your butts.
Fueled by Caffeine said:Re read what I wrote. I didn't say people were pushing 10k bikes. You guys need less hurt in your butts.
Replacing the factory saddle with a better quality one can help
(emoji included to ensure attempt at humor is clear for any readers that may be unsure. )
Two more thoughts as old dude trying to get back into MTB.
One, I am not doing clipless pedals again for a while as an experiment. Going with flats to see how that works. I just ordered some $25 Fooker pedals on Amazon.
Two, I am watching too much of Hardtail Party on YouTube. Now I want to build something from the frame up, but i don't want to pay for it.
ok three, I am completely geeking out on the new MTB details rivaling how I watch this forum to learn useless minutiae because I love it.
In reply to 84FSP :
Yeah, E-bikes are another topic altogether. It seems to be getting a lot more butts into bikes, which is good, but off road it's blurring the distinction between bikes and slow motorcycles which I'm much more conflicted on. I was watching a couple of guys motoring up a hill on their mountain bikes while chatting like they weren't working at all. I'd probably be resentful if I was busting my balls cranking up the same hill. It's also going to open up a lot of trails to people who haven't "earned" them by way of training and fitness.
I am eyeing the Santa Cruz Heckler pretty hard. As a fat(ish) old(ish) dude who hasn't rode his bike all summer, its really appealing to pick one up before a fall Marquette trip.
In reply to GTwannaB :
The key to flat is good shoes. I love hardtail party. You can build something from the frame up without absolutely exploding the budget if you shop around second hand, wait for sales, etc.
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