In reply to rustomatic :
Rockshox Reverb I am guessing is the dropper.
In reply to rustomatic :
Rockshox Reverb I am guessing is the dropper.
93EXCivic said:Keith Tanner said:I can't imagine riding flat pedals. I had an early experience hitting something on a downhill hard enough to pop both feet off the pedals and my butt off the seat - not comfortable at speed. I've been clipped in since about 1986. Besides, having your feet able to do more than just push down opens up a lot of options for bike handling. Spiky pedals to the shins have always sucked.
I mean if you are sitting on a downhill there is a problem.
If you haven't tried flat since 1986 a lot has changed. I am not saying to change from clipless but it is kind of hard to judge flats if you haven't riden modern flat pedals with modern shoes. I am not sure I agree about the bike handling thing.
I find this statement amusing because the "new" flat pedals that people are talking about in this thread look like reproductions of the pedals we had in 1986.
I remember the hot thing in 1986 was taking a file to your Crupis to make them razor sharp.
What is old is new, etc. Next we will see bikes being made more inexpensively by getting rid of the front derailleur and using a wide range rear freewheel...
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
They're rediscovering Biopace, too :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Modern shoes (510s and the like) with concave pedals certainly are a big improvement from the old Bear traps. As I said in an earlier post, there certainly times when clipless certainly is an advantage as I mentioned early road racing/cyclocross/ XC and top level enduro and dh for the most part (there are som top level pros in those last two that do run flats) because when sprinting they do hold an advantage over flats. But I know a number of guys who are long time clipless riders who have had accidents mad worse by clipless, so for me the advantage of easy bails is way greater then the small advantage of sprinting when I don't race. As far as bike handling, I would argue the guys who are the best bike handlers in the world use flats (trials, dirt jumpers, BMXers, freeriders) so unless you are using clipless as a way to do bunny hops (the wrong way)...
I am not attempting to convince you to change cause if you are comfortable and having fun that is what matters. But just saying that if the last time you gave flats a serious go was in 1986, it would a bit like me saying that all American cars were crap if they last American car I had driven was a 1986 Cadillac Cimarron.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Did you have something other then beartraps and the like in 1986? Cause the one time I rode something like that on the trail it did not grip nearly as well as my DMR Vaults even wearing 510s. Ultimately though stabby pedals are stabby pedals so the pedals aren't wildly new or anything but I'd say the shoes are the biggest improvement in flat pedal riding. Now we have shoes that really grip on flats.
To some extent you are right. If you look at the geo of the og stumpjumper, it is a bit closer modern mountain bikes then the things of the 90s. Somewhere roadies got involved in mtb geo design.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
They're rediscovering Biopace, too :)
Slightly different, I think current oval chainrings are clocked 90 degrees off of Biopace. But when I bought my Niner WF09, it had an oval ring on it. Honestly I couldn't tell a difference between oval and circlular.
You guys crack me up. This is for a 13 YEAR OLD. Rigid singlespeed should be the name of the game, since you know a 13 year old isn't going to service any forks and that rear derailleur hanger is going to bend when he drops it over after arriving at his friend's house to play video games. I'd look for a used Kona Unit, Redline Monocog or Raleigh XXIX. These are bikes that were in the low thousand dollar range but probably will have dipped into the OP's price range now that they're a couple years old.
Something like this: https://raleigh.craigslist.org/bik/d/chapel-hill-redline-monocog-29er/7517298023.html
OP, is your son going to be actually trail riding, or is this a knocking around the neighborhood type of bike?
mfennell said:That shot is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind as I was typing. About a year ago, I started watching some technique videos on YT and have been trying to rewire my riding brain a little.
It's funny that you mention coming of age back then (I started in '94 with a GT Karakoram). On a ride a while back when I still had my S-WORKS hardtail, I told a friend that he should pass me. We were going through a rolling, twisting lightly technical section. Lots of little step ups/downs. Traction management at a premium. "No way dude, I love watching you ride. Total old school hardtail." Best compliment ever.
I started with a '96 Karakoram when I was 12, back when GT was the coolest brand around.
Just like this, black with blue flames. Came with a Rock Shox Q21R though. Deore LX IIRC. Last year or 2 before everything went V brake.
In reply to rothwem :
My 9 year old nephew is riding a hardtail with something like a 1x7 gearset. Pretty much all of his peers ride multi-gear bikes. I wouldn't suggest a single speed to anyone unless they're already growing out their hipster beard or they live in flatland. He doesn't service his own front shock but neither do the majority of riders in any age group.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to rothwem :
My 9 year old nephew is riding a hardtail with something like a 1x7 gearset. Pretty much all of his peers ride multi-gear bikes. I wouldn't suggest a single speed to anyone unless they're already growing out their hipster beard or they live in flatland. He doesn't service his own front shock but neither do the majority of riders in any age group.
This exactly. The only legitimate reason to stick single speed on a "Mountain Bike" would be if he's looking to get into dirt jumping, but at an entry level, gears will be way more flexible and replacement entry level derailleurs are incredibly cheap should you break one
93EXCivic said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Modern shoes (510s and the like) with concave pedals certainly are a big improvement from the old Bear traps. As I said in an earlier post, there certainly times when clipless certainly is an advantage as I mentioned early road racing/cyclocross/ XC and top level enduro and dh for the most part (there are som top level pros in those last two that do run flats) because when sprinting they do hold an advantage over flats. But I know a number of guys who are long time clipless riders who have had accidents mad worse by clipless, so for me the advantage of easy bails is way greater then the small advantage of sprinting when I don't race. As far as bike handling, I would argue the guys who are the best bike handlers in the world use flats (trials, dirt jumpers, BMXers, freeriders) so unless you are using clipless as a way to do bunny hops (the wrong way)...
I am not attempting to convince you to change cause if you are comfortable and having fun that is what matters. But just saying that if the last time you gave flats a serious go was in 1986, it would a bit like me saying that all American cars were crap if they last American car I had driven was a 1986 Cadillac Cimarron.
I'm working off my own experience. I haven't had an accident that was made worse by being clipped in. I don't know if I've avoided any by having my feet attached to the pedals, that's a hard thing to prove. But unclipping is a completely unconscious move to me.
I'm not going to get into the theoretical advantages of being able to lift the rear wheel and place it down again - and yes, I do know how to "properly" bunny hop. Let's just say that I do feel a difference in my riding when I don't have my feet clipped in, and the ability to transmit maximum power while climbing is very useful to me. Coincidentally, I don't have a massive granny gear that lets me idle up the steep bits. My riding preference is XC/enduro (unless that means something than what it used to).
I've had no reason to try flats since 1986. If someone wants to give me a free set of shoes I'll dig out that set of spiky pedals that came on my hardtail and try it. But I still believe it would be solving a problem I don't have, while removing some capabilities I do like being able to deliver power with both legs at the same time.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to rothwem :
I wouldn't suggest a single speed to anyone unless they're already growing out their hipster beard or they live in flatland.
Seeing bike I am currently building...
93EXCivic said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Did you have something other then beartraps and the like in 1986? Cause the one time I rode something like that on the trail it did not grip nearly as well as my DMR Vaults even wearing 510s. Ultimately though stabby pedals are stabby pedals so the pedals aren't wildly new or anything but I'd say the shoes are the biggest improvement in flat pedal riding. Now we have shoes that really grip on flats.
To some extent you are right. If you look at the geo of the og stumpjumper, it is a bit closer modern mountain bikes then the things of the 90s. Somewhere roadies got involved in mtb geo design.
That looks like a copy of the Deore DX pedals that everyone loved.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
These? I mean other then the way smaller non replaceable pins, thicker profile and I am assuming non sealed bearings yeah kind of. The thing is not every flat pedal is equal. I have tried out DMR V6, DMR V12, Kona Wah Wah, Raceface Chesters, Nukeproof composites, DMR Vaults, Shimano Saint, some cheap Wellgo. For me it went V6=Wellgo<Chester=Nukeproof=Saint<V12=Wah Wah<Vault. Platform shape, size, pin placement and size all play into it.
93EXCivic said:In reply to rustomatic :
Rockshox Reverb I am guessing is the dropper.
LS dropper--great name for a member of the faithful LS church. Anyhoo, I almost never moved it. It moved itself. Honestly, I just never learned to manipulate a bike without a seat between my legs. Check some pics of seat heights on BMX racers in the '80s--they were not on the frame. The jumps were still huge.
93EXCivic said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Did you have something other then beartraps and the like in 1986? Cause the one time I rode something like that on the trail it did not grip nearly as well as my DMR Vaults even wearing 510s. Ultimately though stabby pedals are stabby pedals so the pedals aren't wildly new or anything but I'd say the shoes are the biggest improvement in flat pedal riding. Now we have shoes that really grip on flats.
To some extent you are right. If you look at the geo of the og stumpjumper, it is a bit closer modern mountain bikes then the things of the 90s. Somewhere roadies got involved in mtb geo design.
My S&M flat pedals, which were basically ripoffs of Shimano DX pedals from the '80s, but with removable pegs, were pretty much exactly the same as those in the late '90s. There is very little new about this design after nearly 40 years of iteration.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to rothwem :
My 9 year old nephew is riding a hardtail with something like a 1x7 gearset. Pretty much all of his peers ride multi-gear bikes. I wouldn't suggest a single speed to anyone unless they're already growing out their hipster beard or they live in flatland. He doesn't service his own front shock but neither do the majority of riders in any age group.
I love this. They did a Single Speed World Championship in Colorado at least one year. The people who win those events beat pros while drinking beer--XC pros have also won. There is so much more here . . .
In reply to rustomatic :
And the bicycle chain is largely unchanged since the late 1800s aside from dimensions and minor details.
When you get it right you get it right.
Regarding singlespeeds... I wrecked rear derailleurs so often that I had two Craig's Links in my chain, so that I could shorten the chain and make it home as a singlespeed instead of carry-on luggage. I liked it so much that I set my trail bike up in a 34x21 because that was my normal trail gear. If you started your front tire square to a drop-off on one foot, you launched off on the other foot, made a lot of obstacles simple and formulaic. And ain't no such thing as chainsuck in a singlespeed.
rustomatic said:Keith Tanner said:In reply to rothwem :
My 9 year old nephew is riding a hardtail with something like a 1x7 gearset. Pretty much all of his peers ride multi-gear bikes. I wouldn't suggest a single speed to anyone unless they're already growing out their hipster beard or they live in flatland. He doesn't service his own front shock but neither do the majority of riders in any age group.
I love this. They did a Single Speed World Championship in Colorado at least one year. The people who win those events beat pros while drinking beer--XC pros have also won. There is so much more here . . .
When I moved out here 21 years ago, there was a guy who worked at Over The Edge in Fruita and rode a single speed. The single speed was simply an affectation, chosen as a statement over function. He was also the sort who complained that non-locals were riding "his" trails all the time while working at a bike shop that serviced those non-locals.
Sure, if everyone's on a single speed, a single speed will win the race. But gears exist for a reason, and there's no reason to deny them to a kid. I think the threshold is about 6 or 7 years old, below that they have trouble understanding that you don't just put it in the highest number to go fastest :) This is based on observation of my 6 and 9 year old nephews who come mountain biking on the singletrack near our place all the time. I'm pretty sure the 6 year old is figuring it out, I haven't ridden with him for a couple of months.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Lol regarding your nephew. Here is my 9 year old a couple of weeks back. We rented bikes to ride Stanley park in Vancouver. He is trying to figure out the numbers:
and here he is frustrated after arguing for 10' with his mother that the higher the number the faster he could go:
I never said that flat pedals were a new technology. I just said that modern pedals were an improvement. To use a car analogy, modern high performance tires are better then they used to be but they are not a new technology. I have maybe the S&M pedals mentioned earlier. At least I have some metal ones with removable pins. They are decent but they have a smaller platform then the Vaults, they are thicker then the Vaults and they don't grip quite as well as the Vaults. The Vaults or other new flat pedals aren't night and day better then an older removable pin pedal like the S&M but they are better in my experience. They are a lot better then old bear trap style pedals and I am fairly confident in say that they would be better then that DX pedal. The really huge improvement is in flatpedal shoes. Things like the 510s are a massive step up from Van's.
I am not saying that flats are necessarily better then clipless. For many forms of racing if you want to compete at the top level yeah you need clipless. But it isn't as easy to bail from at least for a while and from what I have seen from other mountain bikers that takes a good long while. One friend of mine broke a leg on a drop when he couldnt unclip (raced downhill in clipless for a lot of his younger life). Another broke a chain stay on a carbon bike when he fell over after failing to unclip (has ridden road bikes for a number of years). I have been trying to get used to SPDs cause I do want to try racing cyclocross at some point. But for high consequence stuff i want bailing as easy as humanly possible. Plus for trying to pull manuals, throwing a foot out moto style around a flat loose corner or horrible attempts at footplants, flats are easier. All I am saying about pedals is it is personal preference and don't say that flats aren't good for mountain biking if one you haven't tried a flat pedal setup made in the last few years (pedals and shoes) and two haven't spent a bit of time on it. Flat pedals take some technique just like clipless does.
fatallightning said:I started with a '96 Karakoram when I was 12, back when GT was the coolest brand around.
Nice! Mine was all red and fully rigid. I added a Manitou 3 after a few months, then Onza (remember those?) clipless. Improbably, I gave the frame to a friend in 1999 (swapping out all the stuff from a too-small bike he had bought) and it lives on as a neighborhood bike for him. He has promised to pass it back eventually, so it can take a space on the wall next to my retired Merlin. :)
rothwem said:You guys crack me up. This is for a 13 YEAR OLD. Rigid singlespeed should be the name of the game, since you know a 13 year old isn't going to service any forks and that rear derailleur hanger is going to bend when he drops it over after arriving at his friend's house to play video games. I'd look for a used Kona Unit, Redline Monocog or Raleigh XXIX. These are bikes that were in the low thousand dollar range but probably will have dipped into the OP's price range now that they're a couple years old.
Something like this: https://raleigh.craigslist.org/bik/d/chapel-hill-redline-monocog-29er/7517298023.html
OP, is your son going to be actually trail riding, or is this a knocking around the neighborhood type of bike?
The intention is to get him out with me on some mild trails. He will likely be 80% dorking around jumping curbs in the neighborhood and 20% doing something more entertaining. What needs upgraded to do more can be done easy enough. Overall it will buy him 4-5 years and hopefully get him into the sport!
Keith Tanner said:In reply to rothwem :
My 9 year old nephew is riding a hardtail with something like a 1x7 gearset. Pretty much all of his peers ride multi-gear bikes. I wouldn't suggest a single speed to anyone unless they're already growing out their hipster beard or they live in flatland. He doesn't service his own front shock but neither do the majority of riders in any age group.
OP is in Ohio, I got the impression its pretty flat there. I know you live in the mountains where a singlespeed is unacceptable, so do I, but a single, well chosen gear works really well on flat/rolling trails. Singlespeed worked really well when I was in Raleigh, which has a lot of shorter, punchy hills.
84FSP said:rothwem said:You guys crack me up. This is for a 13 YEAR OLD. Rigid singlespeed should be the name of the game, since you know a 13 year old isn't going to service any forks and that rear derailleur hanger is going to bend when he drops it over after arriving at his friend's house to play video games. I'd look for a used Kona Unit, Redline Monocog or Raleigh XXIX. These are bikes that were in the low thousand dollar range but probably will have dipped into the OP's price range now that they're a couple years old.
Something like this: https://raleigh.craigslist.org/bik/d/chapel-hill-redline-monocog-29er/7517298023.html
OP, is your son going to be actually trail riding, or is this a knocking around the neighborhood type of bike?
The intention is to get him out with me on some mild trails. He will likely be 80% dorking around jumping curbs in the neighborhood and 20% doing something more entertaining. What needs upgraded to do more can be done easy enough. Overall it will buy him 4-5 years and hopefully get him into the sport!
Ah, gotcha. I still stand by my singlespeed recommendation, but I'd see how the rigid fork does before upgrading. Suspension forks are expensive, and cheap ones are worse than a rigid because they bounce all over the place and weigh more than the actual frame of the bike.
rothwem said:OP is in Ohio, I got the impression its pretty flat there. I know you live in the mountains where a singlespeed is unacceptable, so do I, but a single, well chosen gear works really well on flat/rolling trails. Singlespeed worked really well when I was in Raleigh, which has a lot of shorter, punchy hills.
Exactly. Most of the KOMs in my local park are held by a local beast on a SS. It's within view of the Atlantic and peaks are 200ft above sea level (IIRC, it's 'the highest point on the Atlantic seaboard'). When you can throw down 900w for 50s (which I've seen him do), most of the gears on a multispeed bike are not particularly useful to you. :)
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