Shocking Realization I Don't Want A Wildly Faster Car

While discussing the new Hybrid 911 it hit me like a bull from Pamplona 

"I don't want a wildly faster car" 

This has been a long time coming:

37 years ago I did my first season of racing on a 125cc Gran Prix bike. I loved every moment riding that little Honda. I rode some faster bikes,  my favorite of which was a 235lb 80hp TZ250 but I knew I couldn't afford the TZ and lacked the skills to prepare it properly.

When I switched to racing SCCA our goal with the Datsun 1200 was simple to have fun. After 33 seasons with the Datsun I still enjoy driving it but I've always had my eye on something wildly faster.

Over the last 33 years faster has always been some form of single seater. My Formula Vee really didn't fit the bill but the D-Sports Racer did, of course I hated owning the DSR. In 2014 I bought a Formula 500 which was much less work to own then the DSR and fast enough.

Two years ago my wife casually mentioned that if I worked a couple of extra years (I'm 5 years out) I could buy my dream race car. My dream car was going to be a Ralt Formula Super Vee; I drove a session in one many years ago and have never forgotten it.

Six months ago I decided to sell the F500 and afterward my Wife mentioned she was not comfortable with me going 140mph in that car and really not crazy about single seaters in general.

So while I was contemplating what my dream car would look like we bought the Foxbody Mustang as a dual duty car. The Mustang while not fast was ridiculous fun to drive. Much like when we first started racing the Datsun, Mustang parts are cheap and plentiful, plus the Mustang is sturdy, easy to work on and fast enough not to feel slow.

Discussing the 911 made me realize I don't want to run another car that rapidly goes through tires, brake pads and not to mention needing constant attention.

So I've finally realized while my ego may want something wildly faster the price of admission isn't worth it to me anymore. I have no clue what that dream race car may be; likely a SCCA GT-lite car to play with at vintage races or if I ever go back to a single seater perhaps a Spec Racer Ford.

I remember reading Ayrton Senna saying he enjoyed Karting most of all because it was purely for his own enjoyment. I now have a renewed understanding of what he meant.

If it makes you feel any better, I still get a thrill from autocrossing my 1.6L Miata. Last time we dynoed it–25 years ago–it made 112 horsepower at the wheels. 

My greatest hits/dream list, other than that, seem to hover around the 200-horsepower mark: my 911 Carrera, Integra Type R, later Civic Si, BRZ/FR-S, early JDM WRX, etc.

I guess the biggest outlier is the current Integra Type S. 

~300HP has always been my personal "that's enough for me" number. Many of the greats of the 90's and 00's are plenty quick with about that much power.

I always nervously laugh when some of the youngins these days talk about cars with 400HP+ as "slow".

Everything I have requires hp because well they ain't light. Avalanche is the weakest at 300 but 5500#. Mustang has 460 but 4000#. Explorer is unofficially at 500 and 5k.

Me, after tracking an E30 for four years:  "I need a faster car. I can't drive this thing any harder."

Me, the first day out with a BMW M3:  into tire wall, car on roof.

Our ZL1, while very fast and amazingly competent, made me realize that outright speed wasn't my ultimate goal.  Our 135hp Miata was simply more fun to drive.

I recently finished a K24 swap in the Miata, and although we've only had it out for one shakedown day, I've already concluded that a Miata at 10lb/hp might just be the perfect track car.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

Interestingly, a Foxbody falls right in line with those, ~200 horses in a ~3000 pound car. Obviously, it's a bit more Neanderthal in the suspension department, but that is part of the charm. 

I'm with you Tom. I have maybe 130 HP in my 2K lb pound car and it's about perfect. In the small bore group, I'm catching some and being caught by some so to me that is about perfect. 

I'm right there with you. It's a realization I made myself not too long ago.

For me, it's the sensation of speed that makes driving fun.

I'm with you. I used to grow up having "dreams"/interests of having a car with more power, capability, etc. but after looking at today's cars and just realizing the general situations I'm in, it makes no sense at all despite what I want. I live in North Jersey where the commute is boring and there is lots of traffic in general. Also, these cars are just so fast that in order to have any fun, you'll be breaking the law immediately (fast car, large 2nd gears) or risking your life (cars have too much mechanical grip so you don't feel anything unless you're going 80+ MPH in a turn). These vehicles are naturally at home at an autocross/race track, but the thing is, the cost of the car (if you crash), the cost of consumables (which you will go through), or the cost of big ticket items (engines) are insanely expensive that its not really feasible unless you come from money or are successful in a business/career.

From afar though, I adore the Lotus Emira, some older 911's, etc. I have an NC2 and NB1 that I thoroughly enjoy.

"slow car fast"  

more fun

more cheap

less danger (related to higher overall speeds)

I'm pretty happy with the 300 hp in the Mustang and I appreciate having a decent amount of modern crash structure around me. It's fast enough to get you in trouble and that's enough for me. 

I can't remember who said it but the quote I remember is:

"Accelerate until you see God.  The older I get the sooner I see Him."

I went backwards recently. Tip of the spear cars these days are so fast that mere mortals can't get the most out of them. More often than not they end up as crutches on the straight for medicore cornering skills. I didn't like how fast I was going at the end of straights on Road America. I didn't like the expenses of parts and tires. I didn't like the financial risk or cost of track insurance. To get quicker ironically I wanted to get a slower car. Now the new car isn't slow by any means. It has a base unmodified ls1 with a whopping 345hp. I don't know that its the 'dream car.' I still dream of something like a Radical sr3 with a motorcycle engine for the aero and high revving goodness, but without a trailer thats a no go. Either way I don't see wanting to step up to a 600+hp monster. The straights aren't the interesting part anyway.

Honestly, I have been trending the opposite direction. 90% of my enjoyment is derived from spending quality time with my brothers at track events, not getting to 9/10ths every lap. Thus I have found a warranteed car that I can push to 6-7/10ths in the advanced group and not be a complete speed bump to be the right mix for where I'm at currently....

Now on the street, I enjoy driving my slow POS jeep wrangler around town more than my ZL1. After driving on track for so many years, speeding around town is the opposite of fun. Nothing like feeling the breeze blow through my bald spot on a sunny day.

Good timing.  I also seem to be happiest wringing out a lower HP car and having fun.  The latest toy, an MGB with 250+ HP V6 is a hoot but I feel like I have to drive it at less than 20% all the time.  Not doing track stuff anymore, just want to enjoy driving and wind thru the gears.  I would trade this car for a rust free MR2 in a minute.

Years ago, I owned a 700 rwhp Supra alongside my little turbo Miata.  Always said that if I had to choose, the Miata would be the one that stayed.   Fast forward to today, guess which one I still own?  Nothing like being able to row through the gears at redline without the worry of going to jail ;). 

Toyman! said:

I'm pretty happy with the 300 hp in the Mustang and I appreciate having a decent amount of modern crash structure around me. It's fast enough to get you in trouble and that's enough for me. 

I could have written this myself. Now that I have the suspension and brakes where I want them, power mods should be the next thing, but... eh. It's plenty quick. I rarely go full throttle these days anyhow. Just enjoying the feel of the chassis while rowing through the gears with V8 noises is good enough for me at the moment. 

Now, I'd never turn down more power, of course. This is a Mustang, there are plenty of ways to add it. But when it comes down to spending the money to actually do it, I can't be bothered.

I guess I'll be one who goes against the grain.  While I don't NEED more power, I'm not going to turn my nose up at it.  The whole drive a slow car fast thing has some charm to it, yet it also can be absolutely maddening.  Often cars with lots of power also have lots of grip, and it's awesome to power out of a corner, barrel for the next one, threshold brake in, etc...  It's also fun to have to use string theory to get out of the corner.

ddavidv said:

Me, after tracking an E30 for four years:  "I need a faster car. I can't drive this thing any harder."

Me, the first day out with a BMW M3:  into tire wall, car on roof.

I don't feel so alone! After tracking my 944 turbo for years I figured it was time to sharpen it up: 944 cup suspension recipe, cage, seat. First morning out, right after the yellow went down I ended up backwards atop the tire wall with the side of the car wiped off. Aaaaand that was my last regular track day.

In addition to not needing faster, I've found I can have too nice a car. I never fussed before, now I fuss.

Probably good to clarify what you mean by "fast".  Many people take it to mean powerful, or high power/weight ratio.  Cars can also be fast by having lots of grip, aero, light weight, etc.  They all bring something different to the party from a driver satisfaction standpoint.

My Radical is the fastest car I've tracked by a pretty wide margin.  I went for a few months thinking I'd never want anything faster, and even wondering if I would enjoy myself more in something slower.  Then an interesting thing happened... as I got more wheel time, I started to feel more comfortable at the speeds that the Radical is capable of.  It's as if everything going on around me slowed down a little bit.

I guess what I'm saying is- outright speed is relative and drivers can adjust with enough practice.  My priorities remain:

1) safe enough to responsibly push the limits; thus fun

2) reliable, durable, and inexpensive enough to operate to get lots of wheel time

3) facilitates data and coaching that helps me improve as a driver

If lots of power and outright speed come as a part of that package, even better!

My progression was:

Datsun 1200 (with A15 engine, cam, sidedrafts, etc), so maybe 130 hp?

Kimini (Honda H22, 190 whp)

Midlana (Honda K24 350-500 whp)

Each of the above weighed somewhere between 1550 and 1800 lbs. So, which one did I enjoy driving the most? Yeah... about that...

Driving Kimini at Laguna Seca, as you pass Start/Finish there is a rise, then it drops off to the left. In the 1200, you simply drive the course without thinking about it. In Kimini, it was going a lot faster, and with it's aft CG I got a surprise, where as it crested the hill, it got light and started understeering wne I turned left. Found out pretty quick that the turning needed to be set up before getting to the top of the rise. Between that and the angst about damaging the car or engine, caused it to be no faster than the 1200.

The plan was always to take Midlana to Laguna Seca as well - but didn't. It had a whole lot more power, and the CG was further aft, and had no downforce. I was genuinely concerned that the front end could get so light that over the same rise, it could go straight off. Driving it at Willow Springs was, um, a bit terrifying. There's a line in the design book "High Speed Low Cost", where the designers says "... but what do you do in a car that will always go faster..." I - like many, I imagine - thought, "hell yeah." That was before actually driving such a car. Coming onto the front straight, I never got over the craziness of how, flooring the gas, it would pin me back in the seat, even though I was already well over 100 mph. Toward the end of the straight, air turbulence was whipping around so much that it made it tough to discern detail. Like with Kimini, between the "fear of fast", and the worries about breaking something, caused the car to be hardly faster than the 1200.

So, yeah, of the three, which did I actually enjoy driving the most. The 1200.

I feel similarly. "wildy fast" has gotten too fast. Back when  I got into cars 5-700whp was rare but you'd see it running around. Now stock cars do that and more, and 5-700 is slow. I have no desire to have a 1K hp street car. Im pretty dang happy around the 500 range in a 3K lb car.

I enjoy driving wildly fast cars on track but I hate paying for their care and feeding.  I prefer that my car be slightly faster than my competitors but as far as racing in a faster or slower class I can't say that I really have a preference from an enjoyment perspective.  As far as turning laps is concerned I've enjoyed my time in a classic Mini as much as in a 1,200 + HP Corvette.

I've been lucky to get behind the wheel of fast cars with ridiculous hp numbers. They are cool, don't get me wrong. They're not for me. My favorite car on track weighed 2700lbs and made 166whp. Rio is #2 with 2500lbs and 110whp. Costs are a big factor, sure. One set of tires can last a full season, brakes at least a season. Fuel costs are minimal. But I like the slower car. It rewards you when you drive it right (so I've been told, not been there myself) and really punishes you when you do it wrong (this I know first hand quite well). 

A lot of people consider Sundae Cup as a "beginners Time Attack" or a "stepping stone" to "real cars". I disagree. There's serious talent in these small cars by people that WANT to be there.I want to be there, but I don't have the talent and that's OK. I'm still having a ball.