So, what is involved in swapping to an electric drivetrain?

Dad has that VW Squareback that he can't seem to sell.  The original motor is weaksauce.  He got to wondering what it would take to do an EV swap and I immediately shied away cause I like electron pushing as much as Frankenstein's Monster likes fire.

But I got to thinking.

Some of it is actual electron pushing, but some of it is plug and play, yeah?  How much in each category?  Tesla swaps are all over, I imagine they draw a premium for parts.  What about other setups?  Has anyone started looking into this?

There are aftermarket suppliers selling components for DIY EV powertrains, another option is a Leaf swap if big power isn't needed. An EV swap is just swapping in a powertrain from another manufacturer with a completely different (and very bulky) "fuel" system. There are also aftermarket parts to make the Tesla and Leaf swaps more plug-and-play, if you can tune an ICE's ECU then you should have the skills to set up an EV motor controller, although that may not be strictly necessary with a Leaf swap.

My first thought is if a VW Squareback chassis can handle almost doubling the weight.

EV west has the air-cooled VW electric swap down to a simple weekend project.  

The idea of bolting the motor to the original transmission makes most EV guys cringe but it works.

AEM has some good introductory info about what's involved.

https://www.aemev.com

Whatever you do, make a good box to hold your batteries.  Having seen the small sheet aluminum sheet metal boxes that some of them have made, which are firm bolted to the body- but basically are hanging out like a gas tank- it makes me cringe.  Hardly a durable solution- and I don't think I would want batteries to fall out of a car.

Keith beat me to it. Yes, AEM has jumped into the market with both feet, probably a good idea when looked back on, as those pesky emission issues aren't bottling things up. Also mentioned is EV West.

The thing is that we're at sort of a balance point right now: go EV now or stay with ICE until EV parts are cheaper. Last time I checked, a full Model S drivetrain is around $12K just for the donor parts - depending where purchased. By the time all the aftermarket stuff is added in, and the not inexpensive wiring, it'll be around $20K. To me, for a play car, that's too much - at least right now. Yes, I realize that the battery packs can be separated into smaller units, since presumably the play car is much lighter.

So for now I'm sitting on my hands, though I wondered if going the other direction would be more efficient. That is, buy an entire Tesla, cut/remove everything, but leaving the drivetrain, wiring, and suspension in place, and put a shell over it.

Regardless, messing with enormous amounts of bottled up energy in one's home garage, or not even messing with it and still having the battery pack explode, is a concern. There are a lot of YT videos showing perfectly-fine EVs bursting into flames...

Keep in mind that a full Model S driveline is a little more than just an EV swap. You're increasing motor power by a factor of what, 10? That's a significant performance upgrade that's going to change the nature of the car pretty fundamentally and is going to be expensive no matter what you use for motervation. The EV West "stick a motor on the bellhousing" method will have power/performance levels much closer to stock and will be considerably less expensive. A Leaf-based swap would probably be a better choice for a vehicle like this than a Tesla unless you're looking to build a monster.

Lots of YT videos of gas cars bursting into flames too. In both cases, if they catch on fire, they are by definition not perfectly fine. There's a LOT more energy in a tank of gasoline than a fully charged battery pack. We're just more used to dealing with it.

The ev west kits are nice, but they're also about 18k all in, or about 9k - which is minus the batteries / boxes, which you are then responsible for. It's not a cheap affair, by any stretch. 

Keith Tanner said:

Lots of YT videos of gas cars bursting into flames too. In both cases, if they catch on fire, they are by definition not perfectly fine. There's a LOT more energy in a tank of gasoline than a fully charged battery pack. We're just more used to dealing with it.

 Sure, but the risk of fire is much more intuitive and easy to understand with gasoline than it is with batteries.  If something is thinking about an EV swap then this is something he needs to learn about and consider carefully.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

Lots of YT videos of gas cars bursting into flames too. In both cases, if they catch on fire, they are by definition not perfectly fine. There's a LOT more energy in a tank of gasoline than a fully charged battery pack. We're just more used to dealing with it.

 Sure, but the risk of fire is much more intuitive and easy to understand with gasoline than it is with batteries.  If something is thinking about an EV swap then this is something he needs to learn about and consider carefully.

 

This is why you go with lithium iron phosphate batteries.  A little heavier, a little less power but no fire danger from the batteries.  Get prismatic cells and don't try to size the pack for a 400 mile range (100 is doable without the car gaining a lot of weight).

triumph7 said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

Lots of YT videos of gas cars bursting into flames too. In both cases, if they catch on fire, they are by definition not perfectly fine. There's a LOT more energy in a tank of gasoline than a fully charged battery pack. We're just more used to dealing with it.

 Sure, but the risk of fire is much more intuitive and easy to understand with gasoline than it is with batteries.  If something is thinking about an EV swap then this is something he needs to learn about and consider carefully.

 

This is why you go with lithium iron phosphate batteries.  A little heavier, a little less power but no fire danger from the batteries.  Get prismatic cells and don't try to size the pack for a 400 mile range (100 is doable without the car gaining a lot of weight).

That works great for long term fire risk and whatnot.

But accidentally shorting the battery, well....  That scares the crap out of me, too.  If you do it "right", you should have over 100V in batteries.  When you watch videos of people doing the installation, they rope off the area, and wear special gloves and gear just in case of a short.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has shorted my 12V battery.  Scale that up by 100x.  

I think it's easier to deal with spilled gas than spilled electricity.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

Lots of YT videos of gas cars bursting into flames too. In both cases, if they catch on fire, they are by definition not perfectly fine. There's a LOT more energy in a tank of gasoline than a fully charged battery pack. We're just more used to dealing with it.

 Sure, but the risk of fire is much more intuitive and easy to understand with gasoline than it is with batteries.  If something is thinking about an EV swap then this is something he needs to learn about and consider carefully.

 

Much more intuitive, like invisible explosive fumes in an empty fuel tank  :) Again, it's just familiarity. We have learned the lessons (most of us) so we think it's intuitive, but it's not. I agree that ignorance will be punished in both cases.  

Keith Tanner said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Keith Tanner said:

Lots of YT videos of gas cars bursting into flames too. In both cases, if they catch on fire, they are by definition not perfectly fine. There's a LOT more energy in a tank of gasoline than a fully charged battery pack. We're just more used to dealing with it.

 Sure, but the risk of fire is much more intuitive and easy to understand with gasoline than it is with batteries.  If something is thinking about an EV swap then this is something he needs to learn about and consider carefully.

 

Much more intuitive, like invisible explosive fumes :) Again, it's just familiarity. We have learned the lessons (most of us) so we think it's intuitive, but it's not. I agree that ignorance will be punished in both cases.  

I dunno, Keith.  I've spilled a large amount of gas while trying to change a fuel pump.  Other than massive skin irritation, keeping a flame from that was pretty easy.

But knowing what just shorting as 12V starter battery does, and then scale that up to a battery that can output 10-100x the power....  Not sure if I would make them the same.

I can't be the only one wanting to combine this squareback with the $2500 Boxster.... 

That said me and my Autobianchi are here for cost effective EV swaps.

Because you knew to keep a flame away and prevent sparks and hopefully have a bit of ventilation going. We know what's risky and what isn't with fuel so we're comfortable with it.

People work with high voltage batteries all the time. They're comfortable with it because they have the knowledge of how to be safe. That's all it is, knowledge and procedures. Just like working with gasoline. My coworkers have made fun of me because I disconnect the 12V battery in my cars to do just about anything that has me in the engine bay. But that's because I don't want to short the battery - and I don't.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

would you rather do your car's fuel system, or your home's wiring?

And I really, really can't think that a 12v battery for a starter is anywhere near a 120V battery for an EV.  Which gets worse as you raise the voltage (which is technically the best thing to do so that efficiency is the best).  I don't see people connecting a +100V battery "all the time".  

In reply to alfadriver :

I've been comfortable doing either, most of my life. Because my dad taught me both, for my entire young life! 
As a friend pointed out to me, there is actually no such thing as "common sense" every thing we know, we were either taught, or learned the hard way!!!

Kieth is 100% correct. And over my car love history, I can point out MANY similar examples. 
Unfamiliarly CAN be dangerous; learn how to do a job , any job, safely, and some of that intimidation goes away. 

Voltage is the potential ​​​​​​ for energy (used for work)

current flow is where the problems start. You DO NOT want current to flow through YOU!!!

A 12VDC car battery, shorted across both terminals with a 12" adjustable wrench, is called , well, a bomb!!!

short a 1000VDC battery with a 16g wire, and it melts the wire!

with knowledge, comes perspective. But you are correct. Jon Q Public, shouldn't be allowed around either. 

120V is actually way less than you'll see in total voltage from a modern EV battery pack, they're all 300V+ now, for performance use you'll want at least 400V, ideally 800V or more.

Fun story though, when I was installing a fuel basket trapdoor in my Toyobaru (a job which involved submerging my hands in the gas and pulling an inevitably gas-leaking assembly from the car) I did something slightly wrong when closing the system up which created a slow gas leak. The next morning there was a trail of gas on the driveway trickling down to the sidewalk. If some psycho had tossed a lit cigarette at it, or if an empty glass bottle had rolled near it and caught the sun at the right angle, it could've burned down the car and maybe the house too. It took a professional shop at least 2 tries to get the problem solved. So yeah, gas is not safe either.

In reply to alfadriver :

I work on both my car's fuel system and my house wiring. The charger for my EV didn't install itself :) There are published codes on specifications and ratings and I know who I can ask for help. I don't think I've ever been bitten - and working with professional electricians, I see that I'm more cautious than they are because my unfamiliarity expresses itself as caution. 

Of course a 12V battery isn't anywhere near 400V high capacity EV battery. But they work the same way, so the only real difference is the consequence of a mistake - which will hopefully make you more cautious when you're waving wrenches around near hot terminals. And people who work with PHEVs and EVs do work with them all the time. A Prius packs a 350V battery, and they've been around for a couple of decades.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

would you rather do your car's fuel system, or your home's wiring?

Home wiring, every time. It's way less stinky.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Here's one thing- when you work on your home's wiring, you can turn off the power via a breaker, right?  A breaker that was installed by a specialist who installed the panel with the specialist from the power company.

Now you are doing the actual connection between the power lines and your home- that's hooking up the battery for an EV.

I'm betting that there are connectors that can do that without shorting easily- but that's one more thing that has to be included when you do an EV installation.

And I'm not disagreeing that these batteries have been out forever- but production facilities have specialized equipment and knowledge to install batteries safely.  THAT is the info that needs to be passed down to the shade tree mechanic that's doing a DIY swap.

But if people just want to do it, go for it.  Just pointing out that there are new risks that are very different.

Yup, the ability to disconnect the battery has to be in place. That's electricity 101, have a way to turn it off. Just like you should have a fuel pump cut on a gasoline car for when the engine stops running. How exciting would JG's recent MR2 fire have been if that wasn't in place? How did he know to do that?

And WRT home wiring - I have a 16.4 KW solar array on the roof. That's the same as the actual connection between the power lines and my home. I also have one on my Vanagon. I have to treat them differently when working around them. But that's okay, because I understand them and I know how to deal with it. I've never had to put a moving blanket over a starter battery or a fuel pump to deactivate it :)

Specialized equipment and knowledge - that applies to both liquid fuel vehicles and electric vehicles, which is all I've been saying :) They're only scary if you don't understand them and don't treat them with respect. And again, the Prius is 20+ years old, they haven't all been serviced by production facilities with specialied equipment. People are building DIY Powerwalls out of Leaf battery packs and swapping out cells. Shade tree mechanics can still play with stuff. They just cannot be ignorant, just like shade tree mechanics cannot be ignorant of gasoline.

The ways ignorance can hurt you are different, but ignorance will always hurt.

Trent said:

EV west has the air-cooled VW electric swap down to a simple weekend project.  

The idea of bolting the motor to the original transmission makes most EV guys cringe but it works.

Re: EVWest conversion motor...

Torque peak at 3500rpm, and max useable power at around 6000... seems like you'd have to use the trans for it to be capable of highway speeds.

Dunno if that's a limit of the motor, or the 96V input... but that doesn't seem like a particularly advanced setup... other than it being AC, instead of BLDC or *gah*... brushed!

Then again, maybe "not all that advanced" is a good match for a VW air-cooled chassis.